Spring/ Summer Music and Musicians Thread

[Wafflenose]

My children go back to school tomorrow, and it's my birthday this week, so it must be properly spring in the UK now, and time for a new thread! Please jump right in by telling us about your DCs' learning (or your own), or by asking any music/ music exam related questions you like. We have lots of experienced music parents and teachers on here, as well as lots of new ones.

I am a music teacher, and mum to Goo (10) and Rara (7). Goo started the recorder and flute when she was tiny (age 3 and 6 respectively), has recently added piccolo, but not very well yet, and is starting piano lessons in a couple of weeks. She has no exams this term, but will probably do Grade 6 Flute in the Autumn and Grade 8 Recorder next Spring. She plays in her school orchestra and recorder groups, South West Music School and NCO, and has her first concert with County Wind Band tonight, after a trial course. She hasn't auditioned to become a member yet, and might not for a few years yet, due to age and time factors.

Rara isn't so musically inclined - she prefers to read and draw, and is also very physically active. However, she is due to take her Grade 2 Cello exam this term, and Grade 3 Recorder in the Autumn - she's currently getting to grips with the treble and loving it!

Back to music though, while I am sure there are DCs who, helped by a natural ability are good in both music and academics, I do think a vast majority of DCs that achieve grade 8 by 10yo have prioritised music over academics which can be very risky in the competitive society we live in.

I think that might be true in the later stages of secondary school, but I don't believe that bright kids need to "prioritise" academic study at primary school. For the brightest kids - and let's face it, grade 8 let alone a diploma at 11 is not achievable by any child without very substantially above-average all-round abilities - primary school is largely optional. I reckon DD could have completed the French primary syllabus in 2 years instead of 5, and even DS (who is bright but NOT gifted) in 3-4 years. The UK syllabus is probably more demanding these days (in a fairly pointless rote-learning way, in the state sector) but the idea that a bright child needs to set aside hobbies to concentrate on academic learning at 9-10 is just plain wrong (morally and factually). Focussing on academics at primary school may improve the ability to jump through government-imposed hoops but doesn't, I suspect, make any long term difference to learning.

Was just to say the same as Mistigri. My family are quite into academics (doctors, lawyers, etc), and this is important to me as well and older dc have been sent to a selective second school, but primary school is to have fun, and do lots of other things.

Trinity diplomas don't include a viva and the programme notes are only 400-700 words. LCM recital diplomas don't include a viva either. If you're capable of the performance element of a diploma at 11 I suspect that you could manage to write 400 words on your pieces. It's the performance that matters.

Oh I didn't mean prioritising academics, I meant not giving up on it. I suspect a child who prioritises music (hours of practice every day) will not get a chance to practice times tables, do homework, spend time over the areas they may need to give special attention to.

Prioritising academics in primary school also becomes somehow a must if you are in an 11+ area in the country.

I do agree in theory academics should not become a focus so early (primary school). In practice though I am finding it becomes a high priority earlier than I would have liked.

Also, I'd argue that some of the skills developed in advanced musical training are pretty well correlated with academic success - persistence, listening skills, abstract reasoning, fine motor skills ...

I think that most children are talented in music to some degree, obviously more so than others.
however, if they don't do anything with the talent, there's nothing you can do.
I have never met a grade 8 child who hasn't practised for hours a day, although I don't presume they have all been hot housed just like the siblings I know who did it.

My ds2 has the same ability if not more natural talent in his voice than dd, but he doesn't want to do it, more than singing round the house.
He was spotted and encouraged by school from y3 onwards and was asked to try for a chorister.
He'd rather play football, it wasn't him. Now at 21 he sings in the shower
No way do i believe in bribing cajoling arguing about practice, they either want to do it and it comes from within or they don't. No amount of doing it for your parents will make you a musician and they'll hate you later in life.

11+ is what, 20% of the population? So that means the brightest 10% plus another 10% who got lucky or who had sufficiently intensive tutoring. There is literally zero chance that a child capable of doing grade 8 before age 11 is not in the 10% (unless they have a specific learning disability).

Fleur

I agree wholeheartedly.
At school dd does min of prep, so much so she's often in trouble for poor academic work. She doesn't want to do it, doesn't see the importance, writes any old rubbish and tries to get in an extra hour practice.
She knows if she scrapes enough GCSE's and a couple of A levels in Music she'll get into the conservatoire of her choice. Why should she do more, is her attitude.
I ask her about a plan B if she doesn't get in, but she refuses to even consider anything else and sees it as a cop out.
I blame her dad and his attitude to his career for this

NewLife this is what I was talking about, being able to "let go" in terms of academics. This is not a bad thing necessarily, I just can't see myself able to do it.

But as you said, if the child is that way oriented anyway there isn't much you can do as a parent other than respect their choice and pray to God I assume

Absolutely agree with the general thrust of what you are saying Misti. I think it is a real shame when DC who are bright anyway start to concentrate on academics early on. One of the reasons my academically inclined DC go to a very average local comp is because I actively selected it. It was my experience growing up that academics, for the academically inclined, take care of themselves at school and it is also my experience with my DC. I was therefore looking for an environment which allows them to use their "spare capacity" to develop in other areas like music. OTOH I did not / would not push music to the exclusion of academics either.

(Newlife4me; Yes, but what am I to do with 3 lots of music lessons (dc1 has 2 and dc1 has 1) for which they don't practise but that they do definitely want to continue????)
Fleurdelise, but the really academically bright children that Mistigri is talking about as well, would do timetables and homework in the car, on the way to music lessons.

And the reverse is bad also, my niece is very art oriented, very talented in a raw way. Her dad never encouraged her as "you starve to death from being a painter". She kept it as a hobby and academically tried her best but her heart wasn't in it. She is now 18 and dropped from A levels to fulfill her dream.

Not sure if there are any stats but I don't actually think that being a music high achiever means the DCs are academically high achievers also.

As NewLife was saying above, I think there are a lot of circumstances where a highly talented musical child will not be interested in academics at all because they live and breathe music.

But now you are talking about GCSE, and that's secondary school. I think that is a different thing.
I just don't think that very academically bright children need to put much work in outside school hours to be able to pass entrance exams.

NewLife's daughter is very exceptional though, in having such a strong vocation. And obviously I'm not recommending that kids do grade 8 at primary unless they want to and are clearly gifted - just saying that academics and intensive music study aren't incompatible at primary age.

My daughter is academically able but wouldn't have had the persistence or the work ethic to do higher grades at primary. But we haven't really prioritised academics until this year (equiv. Y11), and even now DD just does what she needs to in order to get the results she wants - she doesn't spend a lot of time on school work and music remains a priority, though she's had to drop certain things just because of timetabling (and an element of laziness lol).

She will be faced soon with a decision though as she is leaning towards studying medicine and in the french system I am not at all sure that this is compatible with music, even at DD's fairly casual level.

exampanic my Ds has passed an 11+ exam and while I agree that if you are able you don't need much work my experience is that you still need work in a highly tutored society. Verbal and non verbal reasoning is not taught at school at all, the reality is that you need exam techniques to pass them, and also the reality is that most of the bright DCs my Dd's age are already tutored since last year (year 3). We don't plan to do any formal tutoring however we will do exam papers with her as we did with DS.

So as an aside she knows music is highly important however she cannot "give up" on academics at such an early age. This means I do expect her to put an equal effort in her homework and practice papers as she puts in piano practice.

Comp schools in our areas are failing...

(Not sure what I am doing with this thread, as none of my dc are high mucical achievers/have any ambitions to become so)
....but as said, for me, primary school is for fun, but secondary school is important to get the high GCSE/A level grades. Then as long as they get their high grades, I don't care too much else what they do, if they want to have music lessons, not practise and just to the odd exam, that's fine by me (once in awhile I will shout/threat them to stop paying for the lessons....).

Fleurdelise, we did do the 10min reasoning tests (books with short tests you were supposed to complete in 10min, we also had them in maths), quite achievable in the car though.

Not sure if there are any stats but I don't actually think that being a music high achiever means the DCs are academically high achievers also.

I absolutely believe that raw musical ability exists separately from academic ability (think of famous blues and jazz musicians for eg) - but formal music exams do not test raw musical ability. To pass grade 5 theory well before the end of primary school (as you would need to do to get to grade 8 by Y6) requires a level of abstract reasoning that is unusual at that age. Learning theory, pieces and scales also requires very good memorisation skills as well as concentration - both strongly correlated with academics.

Art is rather different there is no formal exam-based system, but if you could pass "art exams" which tested things like colour theory, art history, perspective, acquisition of specific art techniques - then you would see a similar correlation between high grades and academic ability.

Commenting from a local West London perspective, there are many children that are exceptional at music entering secondary schools (G8 level), but are equally very bright, enough to have passed all the entrance exams without breaking too much sweat.

I guess the difference is a lot of these children do not have aspirations to go onto specialist music schools at HE, but wish to enjoy their instruments to a high level at school and HE, as part of a wider curriculum programme. Children like this, are able to multi task and not let their academics drop. They are able to do homework on the run, at school, in cars (e.g. learnt from junior school days going from one place to another) and somehow, manage to work under time constraints and still fulfil a very active school/extra curricular life. Not for everyone, but some kids are just like that.

Hello - so lovely to find this thread! I have 3 DCs

DS1(9) is going for Grade 6 cello this term
DS2 (7) may / may not go for Grade 4 cello
DD3 (5) is going for cello prep test this term

I'm a violinist, but my eldest son chose cello (and started with Suzuki method which was wonderful). His siblings loved it, so they also chose cello and I have to admit that I love the cello repertoire, but absolutely loathe carrying around 3 cellos everywhere!

DS2 is not as driven as DS1 and I'm not sure he can be ready for Grade 4 in 7 weeks. He has the 3 pieces and half his scales done, but Grade 4 (ABRSM) has tricky aural tests and sight-reading. His teacher wants to enter him - and I do agree it would give him a great boost. Does anyone know if there is a big downside to entering now, but abstaining from the exam in June if I feel his confidence will take a knock by taking it? (apart from the cost of course - that's a big downside).

I think we are all speaking the same language: doing homework in the car is the same as not "giving up" on academics. For me primary school as "fun" would mean that DCs would not actually lift a finger in their spare time. In reality I don't see the fun in doing 10 min exam papers in the car, or practising time tables, even though we do do it. But my idea of fun is different.

So while DD is not hot-housed (as we didn't hire a tutor and she's not practising 3 hours a day) I am expecting around 15-245 min academic work daily being homework or 10 min tests for 11+ aside her piano practice.

What I would not be happy with: 3 hours of piano practice a day without other interests (she's only 8, too early to decide she wants to be a pianist) or 3 hours of academic work a day (kids need to be kids and have fun).

There should be a balance. Unless of course you realise "Mozart" lives with you but that is a different matter.

That should say 15-25 min (not 245 min)

"Unless of course you realise "Mozart" lives with you but that is a different matter."

I read or heard somewhere that Mozart composed his first symphony (or something else) when he was told to be quiet in the house when his father was not feeling well. My children are definitely not Mozart.

dinosaur 3 cellos! We only cart one around and that's plenty!

No advice about exam, but one DC was entered for an exam that he wasn't ready for and failed and it took ages picking up the pieces. I'm happy to say that he did get over it and did well in his last exam. But it was hard work on my part and on his part too, I think.