Concerns about Dance School..

[Wikkitikki]

My daughter has been passionate about dancing from an early age. She began having tap and modern classes at the age of 3 then moved to a different school of dance 2 years ago where she attends ballet tap and modern classes plus festival troupe on a different day.
They do a spectacular show every year and have also taken the festival troupe to Disneyland Paris. Last week, out of the blue the classes where split and my daughter was told she's not ready to take grade1 ballet next Feb. Some of the younger students are now in the same class so essentially they feel she hasn't progressed in 2 years.
My daughter was distraught, said she felt angrry with herself for not being good enough. We have invested so much time and money into her classes and hoped by doing this she would be able to fulfil her ambition to study dancing post 16-18.
She is very settled at the school and has made friends but I'm also concerned that it appears only the Principal has A.I.D.T.A, one of the other teaches is Pre Associate but at present my daughter isn't being taught by the Principal or the Pre-Associate.
It will be a huge wrench to move her but if we don't do it now we fear she will always be behind compared to other dance schools.
One of my friends at Zumba said her daughter was on pointe at age 12.
I'm actually finding this more stressful than my son's secondary school application! I'm not belittling that process but where we live it's very straightforward . I would like to hear from other parents who have been in this situation and also from parents of children who continued with dance after leaving school.

I was assuming from doing grade 1 that she was round about 6-7yo, so was going to say she shouldn't be worrying about what may or may not happen at 12yo.

9yo seems very old if she is genuinely talented, unless it's a totally different board and they're following a different syllabus.

Put it this way the school mine were at are generally on the late side round here to take exams and mine went into grade 3 at 10. (RAD)

I'd also say that even at 9yo there are plenty of children that think they'd like to do a dance career, but when it comes to it very few actually will. I did chuckle at the year 6 leavers' book where a very high proportion put down footballer/dancer/actress. I think some of whom put down dancer don't even dance, for example!

The main point would appear to be that the school feel she's not ready for Grade 1; not that they're only getting around to it now. A 9 year old still at primary level is unusual...

If she's only been studying ballet for two years has she taken pre-primary and primary exams? I ask because Grade 1 is actually the third exam after beginning and not, as the name suggests, the first grade.
How many grades has she done in her other, more established disciplines?
Some dance schools only offer grades every 2 years with a big show in the alternate year, some do both every year. Successful dancers make it through both schedules if they have the talent, drive and ambition.
This wouldn't be an issue for us as we've been though both systems with our DDs, although only two have carried on into their teens, but if it's bothering you make some enquiries at the school on how they work things. There is a huge difference between schools and may be that this one isn't best placed for your daughter, or it may be that at 9 it's a bit soon to tell.

Yes but I'm guessing the rest of the 9yr olds are supposedly only just ready which sounds pretty unlikely.

The OP has said that the school is relying heavily on senior students to teach. Oh dear - well that explains everything really doesn't it? With the best will in the world, they are young and inexperienced in teaching and will not have much experience (if any) in preparing children for formal exams. I'm inclined to think that it isn't a question of the OPs dd not being good enough, but more likely that she hasn't yet been taught to the standard required for the exam.

No comment on the teaching or anything else, but a couple of asides. If she missed the exam because she chose to attend a brownie trip, the school may have a policy that you need to pass the exam to move up. All girls have to make choices along the way. There is nothing wrong with choosing a brownie trip over a ballet exam, but it is a choice.
Secondly, it is not unusual at all for the older dancers who intend to dance professionally to take classes at an additional school. This is nothing to with the quality of the original dance school, as the OP is concerned 'we just found out'... but merely to do with getting in enough dance classes at the right level. One school will not run their Advanced foundation classes every night, for example, so very often the girls will take the same classes at an additional school as well, to get their hours up. It's very common here. The dance schools usually have an agreement such that the dancer can only only perform for the original school.

12 is about average for pointe round here. I think dd1 was 13, but I could be wrong. She's definitely not going to dance professionally, it's just for fun (ten hours a week of expensive fun. Sigh.)

I would be chatting to the dance school, if I am honest, and making sure that when the next exam dates are posted, that dd understands if she wants to do well, she needs to practice, and attend any additional prep classes, etc etc. and actually take the exam. They can't not move her up with a pass in hand - you can ask the school if there are any extra classes she can take to improve and get through the next couple of grades faster, or so that she can join the grade 1 class if she improves enough.

It's unusual that she has decided this may be a career for her at 9 if she has never taken a formal exam though - is it maybe still a little girl 'oh I want to be a ballerina' pipe dream, rather than a 'hey, I am pretty good at this, and I love it'. Usually the gals with dreams of professional dance careers are in class every night and sitting every exam that pops up, and acing them... but maybe she is doing that in tap and modern, and it is just ballet that she is struggling with? Where is she with the tap and modern classes?

If it helps at all, our current dance school didn't start exams until three years ago (now RAD) so there were a lot of girls who didn't take any exams until much later. We still have girls picked up by professional dance companies. At 9 she has plenty of time. Most kids pass the first few grades though - it's not rocket science. Dd2 passed her g2 last year and she has cerebral palsy...! Maybe the school want to wait until they ace everything?

I am not an expert but I am learning

RAD & ISTD are both boards that are 'moderated' externally so the standard of the exams are 'standard'

At the time that DD was doing IDTA it wasn't (however this may have changed since)

It is possible to get to a Performing Arts School at 16 without 12 years of ballet (DD is proof) but to get to a ballet school is much less likely.

Age 9 at DD's school would be doing Grades 2-4 (ISTD Cecchetti) plus Modern & Tap at a slightly lower grade (as far as I know)

But at 9 Junior Associates would be being attended or a CAT if someone were seriously thinking about it as a career......this is fairly rare to be honest & for F/T Ballet School at 11 Open Days would already have been attended

Incidentally, for those who may be interested, any dance school can take a group to Disneyland Paris - you can simply book for the group workshops, and if you want to perform, then send in a short audition DVD of a performance similar to the one you want to do, which they then check over. There is a minimum number of participants.

The website says that many hundreds of dance groups, singers, marching bands and choirs perform there every year, and to book in plenty of time.

We've known a couple of dance schools do the Disney thing. It's fun for the kids, but a pain in the arse for the fundraising. They went to Florida, I hadn't realised that Disneyland Paris did the same package. The most recent Disney trip in one of the other local dance schools got cancelled due to not enough kids signing up for the trip.

Sorry- been out. I had already paid for the Brownie trip, the dance school said not to cancel the trip as she would still do exam work and go on to next exam. I would have cancelled the trip if needed. It was the prep exam, sometime earlier this year. Lurkedforever1 you are correct, the rest of the class were also at that level. The teacher has said she doesn't want to push her because she knows that will put children off dancing.
We think she has a talent for it, she does mention other career plans but like I have said we want to give her the best opportunity we can. The first exam that was held after she joined was prep tap. She had already achieved a distinction in that her previous dancing school in 2013.

Just texted my ballet teacher (RAD qualified) friend. She said that if she had a new pupil aged 9 who had never done ballet before, she'd start them off in grade 2, and if they already did modern, they would probably be able to move up to Grade 3 after a couple of terms.

My ds did his RAD primary exam age 8, did his grade 3 this summer when he was 10 and has just started vocational school this September where they don't care at all which exams they've done. My dd has just done her grade 1 age 7 and she was the youngest in her class by at least a year, there were a number of 9 year olds in the class. Theirs is a semi-serious ballet school which had four students start vocational school this Autumn and they care much more about getting good technique when they're young and then they seem to speed up through the grades as they get older. I wouldn't be too concerned.

I would agree with Graciesmansion that exams are not the 'be all and end all' of potential and ability in dance.

However, good, rigorous teaching of correct technique is absolutely essential - and if your plan is for your DD to be taught dance locally until 16-18, then you need to be assured that the teaching she is getting at the moment is a) a good foundation for that and b) going to get her to the correct standard for auditioning at that point.

It seems to me - though may be wrong - that a child who goes to vocational school at 11 can 'unlearn' issues from previous teaching, or 'catch up' missed technique rather more easily than a dancer who starts full time dance training at 16-18 with many more years of local teaching behind them. In some ways, I think an exceptional dancer with few years of good lessons in a particular genre e.g. ballet (e.g. KatyMac's DD) might be better off in this respect than a dancer who has had many, many years of not great teaching.

How many students from this dance school go to dance college at 16 and 18? Which colleges do they go to? Have these stuidents always danced at this dance school, or have they moved from elsewhere later in their training?

Regardless of the 'level' of exams reached at a particular age, what is the range of marks like? A high proportion of distinctions might indicate (though does not guarantee) that the teaching is good, even if the pace is slow.

When you see your DD performing at a festival, what type of festivals are these (All England? Other? There is DEFINITELY a pecking order...) What genres are the dances your dance school presents, and how well do they do? Do they win the ballet classes? Or are there other schools that have clearly better technique?

Balletcoforum, by the way, is a good specialised forum for this type of discussion - the members have a wealth of experience, and may well be able to advise on well-regarded rigorous schools in your area.

(DD is regarded by her dance teacher is 'on target' to go to dance college at 18 if she wishes to - she may well not, as she is also very good academically. We had no wish to send her away at 11, and suspect that her body shape may end up too 'hip and busty' for ballet, as well as being too tall.

She will have completed the full set of Grade 6 exams - Ballet, Tap & Modern - by her 13th birthday, and also done Interfoundation ballet. As she has progressed at a grade per year, my guess is that she took all her Grade 4 exams while she was 9, though as she doesn't take all genres in the same term, she may have done 1 Grade 3 exam at 9.

However, what is more important is that I know she is well taught by a well-regarded teacher and her technique - compared with others at e.g. the national Ballet Awards - is very secure.)

Well, I'm inclined to think that there's no point whatsoever in keeping 9-year-old children in Grade 1 for two and a half years. They would be absolutely bored stiff; and to be continually held back is demoralising.

teacherwith2kids,
3 seniors have left for dance/drama colleges, one of those is studying ballet but I said in a previous post she's had ballet training at a different school. There was an article about her in the local paper and it named 2 other schools.
They've just done the annual show and in the ballet there's one girl who looks ahead of others but DD seems to be as good or better than other children who have been put in grade 1.

You say she dances in the festival troupe? It is that 'external' comparison that would be valuable, in deciding whether the school is being rigorous in teaching great technique.

If all the 9 year olds in your dance school are doing Grade 1, then the comparison between them is not as useful to you as a comparison externally - pretty much everyone on this thread has indicated that this is quite slow in comparison to others who have been dancing a long time BUT this isn't of itself a problem if the quality of the teaching of technique is excellent.

Most girls dancing at that level will be attending multiple schools. It's to get enough hours in, nothing to do with any lack of quality at a given school.

We have dancers from our school that also attend the advanced classes at the school in the next town on the nights that ours aren't running, and also (lol) a dancer from a professional school who attends our dance school to top up her hours in specific genres.

Dancers are total hussies, man. They will go anywhere to get the necessary hours in. in and of itself, that means nothing.

Madwoman, i agree that will be case in all but the largest schools. However, if I were to be evaluating the quality of a school in regard to their ballet training, I would find it interesting whether one of the successful seniors learned ballet at that school, or whether her main ballet teaching was elsewhere but she attended some classes at the school IYSWIM? Otherwise one could get a false impression of the quality of ballet teaching, when excellent quality might actually have come from elsewhere.

this isn't of itself a problem if the quality of the teaching of technique is excellent

Yes I agree with this, although the OP has mentioned that her dd isn't being taught by the qualified staff at the school, and this is one of her concerns.

Some schools do use older teenage student trainee teachers which is fine if they are acting as assistant in the qualified teacher's class, but not all that great if they are teaching unsupervised. They would be unlikely to have the experience or in-depth technical knowledge of the syllabus to give the right corrections.

You say you are taking dance seriously but yet you prioritised a brownie trip over an exam??????

I was far from a good dancer or had the right physique but had competed my Grade 1 by 6 and Grade 3 by 9. Similar in tap and modern.

Clearly she is not that good if she's been dancing 6 years and has no qualifications to show for it...and the school are trying to let her down gently and keep dancing for fun...

I take the original post with a pinch of salt, as most of it doesn't really add up. If you take your child's dancing seriously, why have you not moved dance schools already? If an unqualified student were teaching my child, I would be out of the door, irrespective of whether I took my child's dancing seriously or not. Notwithstanding that teachers often use senior students as assistants in juvenile age classes, there should always be a qualified teacher at least supervising the class at all times.

At the end of the day, if your child is 9 and taking Grade 1, you really don't have a clue what their potential for dance is going to be yet, so that is irrelevant to this discussion. What matters is that your child is receiving safe and effective tuition. If the person teaching the class is not qualified to deliver that... walk out the door!

Having chatted with the OP several times and at length by PM, it appears that her concerns were entirely valid (IMHO)

Innneedofadvice, I did not prioritise a brownie trip over an exam, I enquired at the dance school and was told it didn't matter, she was learning the work and could still do the next exam. The letter about the Brownies trip was received months before I knew there was an exam coming up. Also none of the students in her group have yet done grade 1so either the entire class are duffers or something is amiss with the teaching. I found out the inters group who are aged between 11 and 14 took grade 2 last year.

danceteacheruk, I didn't know any better, we were under the impression it was a good school as 2 of the seniors have gone onto dance colleges, one of them danced with the English Youth Ballet. DH isn't pleased that she's wasted 2 years there and is now behind.

I'd like to thank dodobookends for going out of her way to help me choose another ballet school. I really appreciate her knowledge and understanding in this matter. I'm also grateful to the other posters on here who understood my concerns from the outset.

Dd is having ballet classes in an excellent school and is in the grade 1 class, there's some children a lot younger but this hasn't bothered her thankfully. After the first lesson she said she learned more than she did with her old ballet teacher.