Piano advice please

[Honestyisbest]

We bought a digital Yamaha piano which has served us really well, but now my daughter has shown she will def carry on with piano we want to invest in an upright model. My DD is G3. Where do we start? Budget up to 2K. Any advice on makers/models gladly received. Would you go for second hand?

Why do you need an acoustic piano? Digital ones are fine.

I would go for second hand: go and see a piano dealer and restorer. It's partly personal choice, what your individual taste is. Also it depends where you're putting it and what look you prefer. Some people prefer a small modern piano and they can hold the tuning better than an old one.

We bought a beautiful restored, reconditioned Hopkinson a few months ago for £800 and I'm delighted with it. So much better - especially more dynamic range and more responsive- than the digital. We were expecting to pay about £1300 for what we wanted, then came across this one.

We can't get as much dynamic range/ expression from our digital even for G3 standard. Piano teachers advice is to invest in an acoustic, if you buy well apparently they hold their value well. I have been learning piano too and I can really feel and hear a difference between the acoustic I use at my teachers house and our digital at home.

Thanks Roisin. did you buy from a dealer? Thinking of using Roberts in Oxford.

Because you can never replicate the touch, feel and voice of a "proper" piano

Piano shop is a definate play lots of different models call and ask what would be the best time for DD to try.

I like my piano melow, but DD might want something shaper.

Stir clear of ANYTHING recently imported in to the UK.

You would be better off with second hand where you will get better quality then with say a modern Kiwa (sp)

HTH

PS. i'm an ex piano teacher and concert pianist, DP is also an ex piano teacher.

Thanks mummy. how do you know if it's a recent import?

as a rule of thumb a good piano shop will tell you. It is all there is they look up the model number

but i would stear clear of these for my daughter!
Kawai / Atlas /
Berlin:
Breitman: Made by Artfield Piano. No. Chinese.

Brentwood: Made by Pearl River. No. Chinese
Challen: Big no. Malaysian
Diapason: See Kawai. Probably a stencil, therefore probably a no. Japanese
Gilbert: Probably a stencil piano. No. Korean.
Grinnell: Pianos were manufactured starting in the early 1900s, though the company started in the 1880s as an reed organ firm. American. Samick (Korea) has built some pianos for Grinnell in the mid-1990s. Look elsewhere. Korean.
Hanil: Stencil piano. No. Korea or China
Hayden: By Dongbei. No. Chinese.
Irmler: These were originally made in China. Now they are made in Poland. No. Chinese or Polish
Kaiser: Stencil piano. No. Japanese.
Landauer: Stencil piano. No. Korean.
Melford: Stencil piano. No. Korean
Muller, Karl Schutzemarke: Stencil piano. No. Korean.
Reidsohn: Stencil piano. No. Korean
Renner (variously Otto Renner): Stencil piano. No. Korean
Rosenstock: Suspect quality. Probably stencil. No. Korean
Stegler: Stencil piano. No. Korean.
Steinbach: Take your chances; probably no. Korean.

Steinburg: Stencil piano. No. Korean.

Steinmeyer: Another stencil. No. Korean.

Suajin: Stencil piano. No. Korean
Thompson (variously J. Thompson): Stencil piano. No. Korean.

Ok so theres the list

For good ones, as a GUIDE only it might be worth looking at any of theses
top tier," as far as tone, touch, and finish include: Bechstein, Blüthner, Bösendorfer,, Grotrian, Mason & Hamlin, Schulze Pollmann, Sauter, and Walter.

Next tier includes Hässler, Albert Weber (not Weber name standing alone), Seiler, Yamaha S, Kawai Shugeru, Knabe, Hoffmann, and Schimmel.

If you're looking for an upright, top tier names include: Bechstein, Bösendorfer, Blüthner, Grotrian, W. Hoffmann, Mason & Hamlin, Sauter, Schulze Pollmann, Steinway upright included in this excellent category, and Walter.

Next tier: Albert Weber, Astin-Weight, Hässler, Knabe, Sauter, Seiler,and Schimmel. These uprights are pricey.

Would ONLY recommend a grand if you speak with the teacher! The weight is much heavier than that of an up right and if your DD is not of sufient "level" "strenght" or age she is get into bad habbits, it can´t be helped! :)

PLEASE don´t be put off by some of the names re price. have a loot around and see what you can get!

You will be amazed sometimes to find very good pianos cheap!

Also if looking second hand (ie from a home) try and get a tech / piano teacher to look at it, as whilst the piano may be cheap you may need to restring, new pads, felts etc and you may have brought into a lot of cost!

If there is anything else you want to ask please feel free to pm.

Also If you decide to buy privately and book your local piano expert to move it and tune it, they will probably be happy to check it over for you, so you're not buying a turkey!

Safer to buy from a dealer though.

Thanks so much everyone, that is really helpful.

I bought a secondhand ex-rental Kemble from a dealer. That was after visiting about 5 piano shops and playing about all of the pianos in all the shops. It was an experience. There were only two that made me pause and think that they were "mine", so to speak. I bought one of them. Never thought that would happen. Like I said, it was an experience ...

Ah, I wish I had such a brilliant expert advise!

Just to add - I was going to get a re-conditioned Yamaha for DS as it seem to be a standard choice around G5 and nearly paid for it when the shop owner mentioned that it would be a good idea to bring DS to try few of them out first :) .

When I brought him at the weekend he absolutely hated all Yamahas and the only one he really wanted was a brand new Hoffman which was too expensive for me.

It took us a few month and he finally found a second-hand Reid-Sohn - about 20 years old.
He absolutely loved it .

mummy - what do you think about them?

I am only renting it with an option to buy but not sure how well it will last.

hmm, we have an older challen and it is lovely (they used to be made in UK and only went downhill when they moved to the far east I've been told). Our piano tuner really rates it too (it's the kind he likes to restore), though it does have one or two issues being 99 years old!

Just mention it as there may be other anomolies in mummyinspain's list.

One of the most important things about any intrument is that there is a shared journey with the player. Sounds daft, but you / your child will learn a lot more about playing with an instrument they enjoy and feel "in tune" with. A piano can be played in so many different styles 50 different pianosits will play the same piece with 50 different tones, intenations and inferences. NO one is right it is a personal expression of a given notes.

Pianomama I am with your son, I am not a Yamaha fan, they are to "bright" for me! If your son is comfortable and confident with the ried sohn, if he is practising and enjoying playing and improving then that is the perfect piano for him!

HTH

He does really. As he's approaching higher grades, I was wondering whether this will still do in say 2-3 years?

Actually missed the fact that it was in your list - it says "Stencil piano No - Korean".
(It has German build something or rather :)).

What does that mean?A copy?

I know with some chinese made violins main problem is that they can sound nice at the beginning but the sound quality will not hold for years as well made european ones only improve with age.

I know that pianos are different in the way that mechanism gets worn out and doesnt last longer then 60-70 years so it is better to have a brand new piano.

I'd love to get him a Steinway but alas ..

PS He does practice on the grand at school though, so this is just during holidays/weekends

I have tried a few Yamaha in a shop in Ruislip who import reconditioned/secondhand pianos from Japan (or something like that). They are by no means all "bright"... Some of them are surprisingly mellow. I quite liked one of them but it wasn't right for our room. Beware the cheaper end - I think it's the B-series for "beginners" - I wasn't impressed by any of them...

"Stencil Pianos" are instruments built by large factories and labeled with a manufacturer's name not related to the factory. It is less of a problem now than it was in the past. Most of what were referred to as Stencils before were defunct manufacturers whose names had been taken over (bought) by inferior quality manufacturers for the express purpose of selling instruments based on the legacy rather than the quality.

I think the worst of the stencils were actually produced in America during the sixties and seventies. At that time most of the American Manufacturing names were absorbed into the Aeolian-American Piano Corporation. While in concept the association of manufactures and economies of scale produced high-quality instruments at affordable prices in the early 1900s, by the 1970s the assembly lines just churned out non-descript instruments of uniformly "fair" quality. While a lot of the blame can be placed on poor quality control at the AAPC factories, a large part of the problem was due to the American tastes in pianos with the desire for compact spinet pianos that had neither projection (because of the speaking length of strings and small sized soundboard) nor the ability to be properly regulated because of the use of the "drop action." They were also fighting against the tide of import pianos from Eastern Europe and Japan. Both places that could produce and ship instruments for much less because the wages of workers were not as high.

AAPC did maintain several lines at high standards during their entire lifetime (through 1985) including Chickering, Wm Knabe, Sohmer, and Mason & Hamlin ... especially their grand piano lines built in Rochester, NY.

... while I'm not particularly fond of the sound of (most of) the Asian instruments, they are built to a much higher standard, and are well regulated at the factory. I and whilst NOT personal choice to buy either a Kawai or Yamaha piano, they can be well respected and like. And Wm. Knabe, Falcone, Sohmer, Seiler and some of the other brands are very hard to beat for a value instrument.

On the other hand ... recently imported used Yamaha and Kawai instruments are routinely sent from Japan, Indonesia, and China to America and the UK. They are fine instruments, but were built for their originating markets and are occustomed to that environment. They will come with no warranty and often do not include some features that are standard on instruments built for export. (Most often the grand pianos do not include a full sostenuto pedal.)

Pianomama I'm pming you so I can give you more specific advice.

Uptoa I am not saying anyone else can't buy a yamaha they are just NOT my cup of tea! Thats the wonder of a piano you will never find 2 pianist that will agree :)

We have a Kemble upright, a nice bright sounding piano with great action. Standing on a wooden floor but sounded different when it was on carpet.

Also have a Korg Kronos Workstation that does it all with fabulous piano action keys and grand piano sounds amongst all the other sound and percussion libraries. Great for composing and sequencing multiple tracks for playback. Can be linked to a computer. Costs more than 2k but is really the business.

Sorry - didn't mean to dis Yamaha S at all, for 2k you will get a very solid serious instrument . Just a warning to check with the little pianist first as they really need to like the sound :)

Ok we went to a dealer in Oxford who was very helpful/knowledgeable. We liked the Yamahas! The U1 and U3 models built in the 1970s. Feedback on these anyone? Price around 2.5 to 3 K. Lovely tone.
Spent a lot of time talking to the owner, he doesn't rate the newer Yamahas, but does rate the U series. Advice welcomed.

I have a second hand Eavestaff and a friend of mine who is an extremely good pianist (ergo knows much more about it than me) really rates it.

Yamaha is a good make and reliably constructed. My personal likes and dislikes aside as they are NOT relevent in your choice! 2.5 to 3.5 is a fair price providing the piano is in good condition. Buy and Large the middle age of a pianos is fairly reliably good quality. Yamaha where constructing excellent pianos in the 60 and 70´s.

To be clear a piano of over 100 years old will at some point need careful handling and can often become expensive labours of love. Either requireing restoration or semi expensive repairs (new hammers, re stringing, constant repairs and maintance etc) Most pianos of under 10 years, can be expensive to buy new and can in some cases bring their own problems of manufactor or delivery. I sight the steinway we purchased which arrived from stienway with the additionally free inclusion of a HUGE deep stratch running the whole lenght (was replaced by stienway for a newly choosen one in perfect condition)! Pianos in the 20s to 30´s are normally a safe bet for any budding pianosit. Whilst the case MAY appear to be slightly older fasion detracts from the appeal and therefore price they are often hidden and undervalued jems.

If you are happy with the piano and feel comfortable and confident it is the right piano for you, then it is the right piano for you!

If you have found a shop you are comfortable with and trust then heed (sp) their advice.

Sounds like you have found a good fit for you!

I love my 1930s Challen. I think a large part of it depends on how your daughter feels playing it.