Pigs culling - necessary part of transition

[LadyWithLapdog]

WTF Johnson and Brexit supporters. I’m not a raving vegan but this is nasty and indecent, this callous remark that killing animals for nothing is just to be expected. Shameful.

Its completely disgusting. The BVA have had a working group on Brexit since it was first mentioned in politics and have strongly explained that abattoirs rely on EU workers for years and need special consideration for this. The fact that there are now no workers for this is a massive cock up politically and ethically - they were warned and warned about it by the industry so there should have been something in place way before Brexit happened. Even without the ethics of the slaughter for pigs and food wastage aside it is a complete destruction of an industry and livelihoods that could have been prevented. I know theyve been distracted by covid and I know Brexit is a cock up in every way and should clearly never have happened but this was an absolute known inevitable consequence of Brexit. The government are entirely to blame for this one.

@pointythings,

In Paris, they have similar problems to London. They just don’t talk about the ‘cites’ too much.

In rural France, if you don’t speak French and are not known, you won’t get a job.

I know many think the continent is the magical ‘sunlit uplands’, but each country has its CNN own problems and there is far from universal support for the EU.

I have not heard of any pig cull going on in France, nor of petrol shortages.

It's grotesque that we are culling pigs to be buried or burnt whilst the next news clip shows people queuing up at food banks. I was so angry watching Johnson scoffing about killing pigs on the Marr Show I thought I would actually implode.

Peregrina I have family in Paris and in other parts of France. Also in Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands and Switzerland. So I know that Phoenix is talking bollocks about how it is just as bad over in the EU. It's a sweet lie Brexiteers need to believe to stop their heads from exploding. No, the EU isn't perfect. None of us remainers ever said that it was. But my family aren't watching their farmers destroying their own food supply, they aren't queueing at the pumps, their supermarket shelves are full (except when there's a short-lived strike) and their governments are taking steps to protect the people from gas price rises.

I also have family in France and E Europe, so have first hand knowledge. E Europe is still not as prosperous as W Europe and in both places food is generally more expensive but on the whole better quality than the UK. British foodstuffs were in short supply, I don't know whether that has settled down or not. Accommodation is cheaper. Those are my impressions. I have talked to my family members this week and no, there aren't any queues at petrol stations, and farmers aren't destroying their produce. The shambles unfolding in the UK is the news in both countries. Yep they are both blessed with Governments that leave much to be desired, but are not as corrupt as Johnson and cronies.

But hey, first hand knowledge is trumped by what the Mail and the Express say in the Brexiter world.

@QuentinBunbury

Yes, and the labour party did that because we don't have the workforce to meet our own needs. The only way we can raise the money needed to support our ageing population and associated health/pension costs is to have a larger younger workforce earning and paying tax. So yeah, no immigrants=smaller population but also older, more expensive population. We don't have a replacement birth rate so will have more older than younger for the foreseeable.

Maybe wages will go up, but less than prices and our tax bills.

Labour/EU free market approach was attempting to be a win/win - we get more younger people in our workforce, the countries they are coming from get some of the benefits of the higher wages we can pay. I don't see the problem.

Yes, but it is myth that only young healthy people come. They did, but people don’t stay young or healthy & they bring families. I see it a lot through my work - humans are humans and older polish people get Dementia and need their families too.

@Peregrina,

Straw men, something I see so much here.

I never claimed that there were (currently) petrol shortages or empty supermarket shelves in France (to be fair, not having 12 choices of olive oils isn’t killing me, and I have no problems shopping and getting everything I need either).

What I claimed is that all European nations have their own problems and I cited a couple in France.

These threads always pop up when it is us who are having problems. The gilets jaunes protests in France were pretty serious, and they will probably come round again in time for the election. The Euro crisis in 2009 nearly brought down the Euro (and the ECB balance may be ignored right now, but is dangerously large and could yet bite Europe (well, Germany) in the bum).

@TheReluctantPhoenix I can’t be angry about all the idiots in Europe. I’m in the UK and I read about the situation here and I interact daily with people who voted for the fuckers in charge here.

ReluctantPhoenix - no you never said they were having petrol shortages but jumped in with whataboutery. No one said that other countries didn't have problems. Many countries are having problems with gas price increases - but this thread isn't about that, this thread was about healthy farm animals being destroyed and a PM who makes crass remarks about the animals being killed anyway. Instead of getting a grip on food being wasted, and farmers seeing their work destroyed.

You then go on with a bit more whataboutery. What about the gilet jaunes? The gilet jaunes protests in some parts of France were serious. In the town my DS is living in, they were a few men huddled on a roundabout enjoying the fresh air, and doing no harm to anyone.

peregrina the 2011 riots in the UK were also pretty serious, if we want some local whataboutery. And the financial crisis hit everywhere, including the UK.

But right now, no country in the EU is destroying its own food supply, with its Prime Minister shrugging and saying 'oh well'.

@RancidOldHag can you show my proof of this statement about the French burning English sheep alive because I've never heard of it and I cannot find any references to it in the French press. Could it be propaganda?

It's an age old tradition to paint the other country black.

@Peregrina and @pointythings,

‘Whataboutery’ is one of the most fatuous words in the language. As soon as someone uses it, they have (IMO) lost their credibility.

Any intelligent analysis (unless purely mathematical) depends upon comparisons.

Otherwise a thread might as well just consist of 👏, 😊 and 👍.

@Youarestillintherunning

I'm really sorry if this is a stupid question, but I don't understand why they have to kill them? I get that they can't be sold as meat now, but why does that mean they have to kill them? Can't they just carry on living on the farms until they die naturally?

The pigs no longer fit into the slaughter system when they are too big. So no longer commercially viable.

It worries me, what the future for pig farming in UK will be. We have had some of the highest standards of welfare in this country, but that has been squeezed and squeezed until it squeals.
I always buy 'free-range', but that's become quite rare to see now.

If a point if Brexit was to become more self-sufficient; to 'buy British'; to support and improve high standards in UK agriculture and livestock farming, this would seem to be another example of total failure.

The Govnmt never had a plan for how Brexit would work - the function of complex interconnections and consequences.
They are merely reactive to acute detail to appear to be on top of situations when they can no longer be hidden - for example, financially propping up a couple of fertilizer plants for a few weeks so food supply and other areas reliant on CO2 didn't grind to an immediate halt.

There won't be anything other than a trite response to the crisis in pig farming, because as usual they are caught on the hop and have no answer, so try to deflect it's importance.

We are entering a very difficult period, I would suggest.

Phoenix fatuous is refusing to accept that serious issues happening as a consequence of a bad decision are real, and attempting to deflect from the situation by pointing out that bad things happen elsewhere. You just don't like it that your precious Brexit isn't going so well. When are we going to see some benefits which aren't cancelled out by massive downsides? Rising wages cancelled out by inflation and rising costs aren't all that great.

ReluctantPnoenix - if you dislike the term 'whataboutery' why then did you indulge in it? By the token that a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, making statements about how other countries have problems is still an irrelevance, if they are not problems being felt in this country.

Any intelligent analysis (unless purely mathematical) depends upon comparisons.

Yes, indeed, but that wasn't what you were doing. If you had said that say Poland or Denmark was also having to conduct a wholesale slaughter of pigs, then yes, we could say it can't be due to Brexit, what other factors are involved?

Or gas prices- there is a valid comparison to be made - we can see that there is an international problem. However, Brexit hasn't helped us.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]**@Peregrina* and @pointythings*,

‘Whataboutery’ is one of the most fatuous words in the language. As soon as someone uses it, they have (IMO) lost their credibility.

Any intelligent analysis (unless purely mathematical) depends upon comparisons.

Otherwise a thread might as well just consist of 👏, 😊 and 👍.[/quote]
Anything to avoid discussing the chaos caused by Brexit.

Engaging in whataboutery, then insulting the intelligence of those who call you out on it, does not make you look smart. It simply shows that you're losing the argument.

There was, and is, no point to Brexit.

Absolutely none.

There's also the little matter of how comparison works - comparing apples and bicycles isn't particularly mathematical or scientific - and that's what Phoenix and Brexiteers in general like to indulge in. Because there's nothing else for them to do, given how things are going.

The celebration of using East European labour rather than paying people a dignified living wage is really something to behold, and the wailing when this is taken away and people have to queue for petrol or cannot get exactly what they want in their supermarket…

I am not sure that was ever what most remainers were posting about in their idealistic view of the EU.

There was an adjustment process when we joined the EU, quite painful for some, and will be an adjustment process as we leave.

The obvious schadenfreude on this thread (and many others) is just (premature) gloating at others’ suffering.

@PattiPritell

I think they have to kill them because they are the wrong size to process - if they don't fit into the existing packaging what do you do with them.

But I don't see it is the Gov's fault - I mean Brexit was 5 years ago. Many working here from E Europe etc went home farmer should have adapted for that .
The gas shortage - well we are trying to save the planet by closing coal power stations. Huge demand on gas all over, no CO2 for stunning animals.
So they're stuck wiht thousands of unwanted pigs. It's a nightmare but not particularly anyone's fault. It's due if anything to our methods of farming.

that is what i understood

ie. i thought it was the lack of gas to stun the pigs that was the issue

I see here that Brexiters are passing on the blame to farmers. Farmers didn’t plan ahead, farmers aren’t paying enough for labour etc. Brexiters will never own the shitstorm. All the while dismissing killing 120,000 pigs for nothing at all as oh well, it happens.

Idealistic view of the EU! I’m sure no-one thought it was democratic perfection. Most of us live and understand real world issues.

However, we had a key role in one of the biggest trading blocks in the world, with the leverage and potential that afforded us. Plus the FOM which was so personally and economically valuable.

Actual tangible real-world benefits.

@TheReluctantPhoenix - What are the tangible benefits and strengths of Brexit we should look forward to? Or does your idealism suffice?