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Brexit

Westministers : Saving the Union

954 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2021 23:26

Apparently we need a tunnel. Just like we needed the £53 million failed Garden Bridge.

Nice little earner for anyone involved.

OP posts:
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LostToucan · 25/02/2021 14:40

That vaguely surprises me, as from various sources over the years I have been amazed at the details that were kept. Down to individual bomb falls during the blitzes that were tallied up for investigation and defusing where needed. Or so the recent series of programmes on the story of one bomb in London, Bristol and Glasgow showed.

Yes, pretty good records were kept of where enemy bombs were dropped, which are kept in the National Archives at Kew, and they have made accessible by the Bombsight project:

bombsight.org/#15/51.5050/-0.0900

But disposal of surplus munitions after conflicts would have been organised by the Ministry of Munitions / War Office and covered by the official secrets act and crown immunity. Lots of scope for all sorts of things to have gone on out of public view / scrutiny.

DGRossetti · 25/02/2021 14:47

But disposal of surplus munitions after conflicts would have been organised by the Ministry of Munitions / War Office and covered by the official secrets act and crown immunity. Lots of scope for all sorts of things to have gone on out of public view / scrutiny.

There's a franchise of Ealing comedies there for sure Grin

My DF made a few cents from picking up loads of US army debris, as they moved up through Italy. Live bullets, mortars, and the odd grenade. DF was lucky that he was only shocked when a bullet in a vice did go off with a hammer and punch. But sadly some kids (it's always the children) weren't so lucky with unexploded ordnance. And given that Italy - especially the South - wasn't quite as organised as the UK, there's probably still a lot left waiting to be unearthed.

Mind you, they still recover tonnes of UXBs from Belgium from WW1. With a tragic death toll to match Sad

LostToucan · 25/02/2021 14:56

They recently closed a local nature reserve whilst they carried out further removal of WW2 munitions (it had been used as a training area). The Ranger said that although it had previously been cleared, they had still been finding things and had to show photos to school groups so that the children knew not to pick things up but to alert the Rangers.

Eve · 25/02/2021 14:59

@DGRossetti my grandfather in law was conscripted into the Italian army to be sent to the Russian front , he absconded somewhere in the North and mostly walked home back to the south.

There was a program on TV I recall watching about still digging up explosives around Monte Cassino.

On a side note - living and working in Belfast in the 90s. I have seen a bomb go off ( only a small one and we had been evacuated to a safe distance) quite fascinating to see.

DGRossetti · 25/02/2021 14:59

@LostToucan

They recently closed a local nature reserve whilst they carried out further removal of WW2 munitions (it had been used as a training area). The Ranger said that although it had previously been cleared, they had still been finding things and had to show photos to school groups so that the children knew not to pick things up but to alert the Rangers.
If only the Vietnamese were so lucky.
LostToucan · 25/02/2021 15:02

I would have liked to have seen the risk assessment and parental consent forms for those trips - one of the items found by a school pupil was a phosphorus cannister.

ListeningQuietly · 25/02/2021 17:32

LostToucan
Not uncommon in parts of Dorset / Wiltshire / Hampshire that school trips are in ranges.
Not many kids die Grin

LostToucan · 25/02/2021 19:27

Yeah - but a nice quiet nature reserve that isn’t a current range isn’t perceived to be a risk in the same way.

ListeningQuietly · 25/02/2021 20:51

Toucan
We'll have to disagree on that.
Salisbury plains best nature sites are knee deep in live ammo.

More to the point
When will the Brexiters cheer up about Brexit

LostToucan · 25/02/2021 21:09

MoD sites are amazing for wildlife - they have been protected for decades and it’s usually a bit tricky for poachers to get access. But - Salisbury Plain is currently used for range activities and it’s well known as an active site.

My local nature reserve hasn’t been used for range practice for over 75 years and records are really sketchy. It was allegedly “comprehensively cleared” by the MoD over 30 years ago. But, from experience, MoD site clearance guarantees are not worth the paper they’re written on.

TheABC · 25/02/2021 22:54

@ListeningQuietly

"More to the point
When will the Brexiters cheer up about Brexit"

2nd April, I reckon. After seeing their deal in action.

mathanxiety · 26/02/2021 05:28

The European Research Group (ERG) has published a report which concluded the Northern Ireland Protocol had a “profound and negative effect”.

This is part of a concerted effort to destroy the GFA.

pointythings · 26/02/2021 07:52

At one of the digs where I worked when I was at Uni, in the province of Limburg in the Netherlands, we had the Explosive Ordnance Service out because we found half a dozen unexploded WWII mortars. Tres scary.x

All the Brexiters I know have gone very quiet.

DGRossetti · 26/02/2021 09:12

@mathanxiety

The European Research Group (ERG) has published a report which concluded the Northern Ireland Protocol had a “profound and negative effect”.

This is part of a concerted effort to destroy the GFA.

But surely they are caught with the same cleft stick that Labour are in that they voted for it ?
DGRossetti · 26/02/2021 09:55

www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/leave-campaign-made-brexit-a-new-religion-to-win-votes-university-report-finds-222368/

Leave campaign made Brexit a “new religion” to win votes - University report finds

A report by the Universities of Birmingham and Warwick has found the Leave campaign made Brexit a new religion to win votes by focussing on secularised theological concepts such as sovereignty and the concept of a nation.

The document revealed that slogans such as “take back control” used the NHS as the country’s Holy Grail that could be rescued from European forces that threatened Britain’s unique historical place in the world.

Co-author Dr Peter Kerr, senior lecturer in politics at the University of Birmingham, believes placing it at the heart of the Brexit narrative showed “shrewd political calculation”.

“Framing the NHS as the Holy Grail to be rescued from the threat of the EU superstate and an influx of foreign migrants – symbolised by the ‘Brexit Bus’ – neatly cut into a variety of beliefs and emotions about Britain’s place in the world and its membership of the EU.”

The researchers noted there was clear differences in reasoning between Leave and Remain supporters, with the former more likely to appeal on emotion, rather than political or economic reasons.

Dr Steven Kettell, associate professor in politics and international studies at the University of Warwick, explained: “Such quasi-religious narratives worked to heighten the intense emotional fervour around Brexit and led many of its adherents to distance themselves from various facts about its potential future implications.

“This approach effectively insulated claims about Brexit from any sort of rational critique.

“This emotional disconnect from expert advice, along with the willingness of true believers to accept various assertions, created the ideal conditions for the now famous NHS ‘lie’ on the side of the Brexit Bus to play a pivotal role in securing victory for the Leave campaign.”

The report claims this led to support for a hard Brexit soaring, including a no-deal which would likely have devastated the UK’s economy.

Responding to the research, Liberal Democrats MP Alistair Carmichael claimed the UK was already “paying the price” for the decision.

He said: “It should come as no surprise that a nationalist movement like Vote Leave encouraged people to put blind faith in false promises ahead of reality.

“We have to learn the lessons of Brexit and not repeat them.

“There are plenty more nationalist prophets out there who want people to follow them on faith without asking questions.

“We can only move forward as a country, however, if we challenge those who offer easy answers to complicated problems.”

DGRossetti · 26/02/2021 09:57

Of course by making Brexit a religion, you make it sacrosanct and a stake-burning crime to question.

Peregrina · 26/02/2021 09:58

Why did the ERG rush to sign it then? Why didn't they ask for more time?

DGRossetti · 26/02/2021 10:12

@Peregrina

Why did the ERG rush to sign it then? Why didn't they ask for more time?
(as with Labour) who gives a shit ? They voted. That's that.

I can't see them getting very far at all. However it's a clear indicator that far from being "done" Brexit hasn't even started yet. And it can't until there's at least an appearance of general acceptance.

Like the ham fisted moron he was, Camerons clumsy attempt to lance the infection of the headbangers hasn't only not drained the boil. It's managed to spread the infection into the body and begin what could very well be described as political septicaemia.

Moving on, I did fall into a very deep rabbit hole recently and a couple of ideas popped up ... one was that an independent Northern Ireland solves a lot of problems, and that was in conjunction with a root'n'branch refactoring of the UK constitution to a more federal idea.

I am always intrigued when I head good ideas and questions that aren't being discussed. It suggests a level of suppression. Way back when old Nige asked a corking question that no one ever answered. A question that has only become more pressing with time.

QueenOfThorns · 26/02/2021 10:18

@Peregrina

Why did the ERG rush to sign it then? Why didn't they ask for more time?
I thought they just wanted the transition to end on schedule. Get back our precious sovereignty. Then they were planning to renege on the bits they didn’t like, so they didn’t need to bother reading it until afterwards Angry
DGRossetti · 26/02/2021 10:30

Well the only way to accommodate the whims of the ERG ( and once you've paid the Dane geld .... ) is to go back to the Plan A. of fucking the GFA over. Which considering the realignment of the US these past months may be considered ... courageous ?

I'm guessing we are headed into very dark days. It's unbelievable that there aren't UK citizens all tied up in the ERG club who are actively working against the elected president of the United States. From these shores and theirs. In the same way there are US citizens who are actively working against the elected UK government.

borntobequiet · 26/02/2021 10:48

Clever of Birmingham and Warwick Universities to come to the same conclusion that we came to on here about five years ago .

borntobequiet · 26/02/2021 11:06

Distant fishing fleet shafted by Brexit. Fishing Minister: “It’s OK because other states are having difficulties too.” (I paraphrase.)

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000sjzv

Peregrina · 26/02/2021 11:22

The idea of a Federal UK has been floated a few times. The New European had a long article on it a few weeks ago.

I suspect myself that it would have been a good idea back in 2014 at the time of the Scottish Independence Referendum. I think now it's too late.

ListeningQuietly · 26/02/2021 12:43

Feelz are great in the short term
but you cannot eat them

ListeningQuietly · 26/02/2021 14:17

Chris Grey is well again this week
chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/
and I have to assume he lurks here
in pussy-footing around the supposed sensibilities of red wall voters, Labour are treating the bulk of their supporters with contempt
Electoral considerations aside, Starmer’s failure of leadership on, not Brexit, but the UK’s post-Brexit future is a catastrophic dereliction of duty. Who else is going to speak up for those being damaged by what is happening to this country’s trade? It’s also a major strategic error. He has a once in a generation opportunity to cast Labour not only as the party of business but, in doing so, as the protector of the working-class jobs and communities that are dependent on trade with the EU

I just wish Starmer would wakeup

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