Westministenders: The Beginning of Negotiations

[RedToothBrush]

Transition has a few hours left.

Then negotiations start and trade stops.

Far from being over, there are huge numbers of issues that lay unresolved.

And businesses both now in the UK and EU will cease to trade with each other just because the red tape is such a pain.

So whilst people will celebrate and think things are 'done' that just shows how much people are paying attention.

It will be interesting to see people gradually realising what has been lost...

.

Let each LEA decide the policy for the schools in its patch

But with so many schools, secondary especially) being part of academy chains, the LEA has much less authority.

BTW who voted for Academy chains?

Peregina, there were voluntary controlled schools before there were academies... Academies are not a new idea by any stretch of the imagination.

Re: school closures, I think its much harder for schools due to go back tomorrow and don't have an inset day.

Its interesting to see how many parents have only been informed this afternoon or this evening about a closure (myself included).

Heads have really been dumped in the shit in the middle of a political storm. Its most unfair.

Having said that, given the numbers here, its pretty obvious its an inevitability at some point, and tbh I do think we are just best getting on with it rather than prolonging the agony of it.

The uncertainity of what tier you are in this week has been difficult for me for a while, and I'd be living under the 'will the school be open tomorrow' cloud otherwise. I would prefer decisive action on this rather than Johnson's dithering style of leadership...

Peregrina
Huge hugs for your DC
Having been through it, there is nothing scarier than being locked up by immigration authorities as you are not in ANY country at the time

Redtoothbrush
Its a bit of Tory propaganda that separates LEAs from schools.
Even Academies have to accept SEN and traveller and refugee.
The LEAs are there ready, willing and prepared to sort the mess on their patch
but shits like Williamson and Hancock are stopping them

Peregrina
Are you able to read?

Perfectly.

I said I questioned the seats he thought the LibDems might win, and would be extremely surprised if my seat was lost to Labour.

Yes, that would be a miracle - but if one in four LibDem voters switch to Labour (as per the article in your link) then the Conservatives might win the seat:
2019 election: LibDems 31,340, Conservatives 22,397, Labour 4,258, Brexit Party 829.
2017 election: LibDems 26,256 Conservatives 25,440, Labour 7,513.

Now you might regret prompting me to look at your link again - link on the same page;

Lib Dems hook up with 5G cranks and give a boost to wild conspiracy.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/26/why-would-the-lib-dems-hook-up-with-5g-cranks-it-can-only-be-cowardice

I live in Spain. Kids have to wear masks in school at all times, as do teachers, even outside and during PE. They have the windows open and where possible are sitting apart. Our village (pop 5500) has 2 small primaries/infants (1 or 2 form entry) and one small secondary (12-16 year olds, 4 form entry) and there have only been 2 cases across all 3 schools and no classes sent home.

Infants don't have to wear masks but most do.

Apparently, schools in my region of Spain are 95 % covid free.

Also, masks are mandatory everywhere public, indoors and out. Have been since the summer. There are exceptions but pretty much everyone wears them. You don't get so many people claiming to be exempt. I think partly because they have to be worn everywhere and it is enforced, you would get sooooo fed up of explaining it unless you had a really decent reason not to it's just less hassle to comply. And you do get used to it if you have to wear it any time you leave the house.

Orange
And that is the key
a clear message
that may piss people off
but stays clear

but Johnson has spent years telling Brits that they are Exceptional and World beating
AND
covered Dom's arse at a time when sacking him would have set the RIGHT message
and saved THOUSANDS of lives

Another primary-school parent here, playing the will-they, won't -they game. My school sent a survey around this weekend to find out who is now a keyworker (as it could have changed, since last March). They had over 90 children in during the last lock-down, so I don't expect the teachers to get much respite.

Myself and DH are bracing ourselves for long days as we both work full-time and can't furlough. In line with every other decision so far, I expect we will hear from the Government in two weeks time.

On the other side, her passport was stamped. I am not sure whether it should have been or not. We think probably not.

It shouldn't have been as it has potential to cause issues later by making residents look like over-stayers.

If she wants, she can contact British in Europe on FB or Twitter with the details, as they are collecting information about withdrawal agreement breaches to raise with the EU and the U.K. govt.

Peregina, there were voluntary controlled schools before there were academies... Academies are not a new idea by any stretch of the imagination.

My recollection with DF, DM and DH all having been school governors at various times over the last 40 years is that as well as LEA Schools, their were primarily voluntary controlled schools or voluntary aided, which were Catholic or Anglican with slight differences in funding.
Back in the early 1990s the Tories introduced Local Management of Schools, which I helped to implement in one. There was a feeling at the time that it was a way of taking power away from the local authorities, but in practice once systems had bedded in, which did take some effort, it did give schools some flexibility.

New Labour introduced Academies - mostly as a funding wheeze as far as I could see, but it's since 2010 that they have taken off in a big way. You now get the situation that the Chief of the Local Education authority might be paid c.£150,000 to look after 200 schools, and the Head of a Chain can be paid £350,000 but look after 9.The Tories dressed all this up as improving standards, but such work has been done has not shown that academy chains perform better than LEA schools. Nor has it given power to Heads - LMS did that perfectly adequately whilst keeping the schools under the umbrella of the LEA.

LEAs are now charged with providing school places but cannot plan properly for them. We have the situation locally where a new school is needed, but the LA can't just buy a plot of land and build one, it has to find an academy chain to do so. The chain that was found for the needed school was somehow then not deemed suitable. Hence 4 years on and still no school. (My details here are a big sketchy now, but the information was given to me by someone directly connected with trying to get the school built.)

Then you get orphaned schools that no chain wants.

So I feel a bit narked when I ask who voted for these academy chains, because I don't recall it ever being put to the electorate and it strongly smacks of a divide and rule policy. I will grant that living in Oxfordshire it's regarded as a good LEA, so we may be better off than others.

But this is a digression from Brexit, apart from my divide and rule comment which is very pertinent to the whole sorry shit show that we now have in this country, and would be better on the education threads.

It shouldn't have been as it has potential to cause issues later by making residents look like over-stayers.

If she wants, she can contact British in Europe on FB or Twitter with the details, as they are collecting information about withdrawal agreement breaches to raise with the EU and the U.K. govt.

Thanks Mistigri, this is exactly what she is worrying about and I will pass the information about FB and twitter on to her.

Have not RTFT, but would like to speak my piece. As a person who JUST voted leave (by a hair), with lots of misgivings around the whole subject, and definitely not a full bore enthusiast for leave, please may I bring my hopes for what we might do better post-brexit here? Shout me downly freely, as you have elsewhere.

The economic importance of fishing has been overstated, but it would seem that fish prefer cooler waters and are swimmiing into the Channel and North Sea. So it's unreasonable that the UK has no fish quota for tuna for example. A customer caught a 600lb tuna just off Cornwall a few months ago, and had to throw it back. That is £10k worth of fish. Why waste it? It was that fisherman's one off life score.

Farming, with apologies, I live in the southwest, and farming matters here. Especially livestock and dairy. The land doesn't lend itself to cereals and arable crops but because it's mild and damp, we rear beef and dairy cattle that are among the best, and best treated on the planet. Our moorlands are good for sheep, and not much else, but gosh, they are beautiful, so people come here for tourism, to walk and refresh themselves.

Originally the Common Agricultural Policy was written to favour the production of crops not grown in the UK. And to encourage productivity which quickly became over production. Payments were made to alter landscapes and water courses to make the land easier to farm with machines and chemicals.

I hesitate to cite James Rebanks here because I know someone will object to me mentioning his name (and I really respect his views and would not wish to bring him into this discussion involuntarily), but his most recent book suggests that he believes his grandfather's views on land management are superior to what his father was encouraged to do.

If leaving the EU is how we can reframe agricultural subsidy policies better (small upland farms that are only suitable for rearing sheep are always going to need some subsidy), and we can also use the opportunity to incentivise farmers to manage water-courses and run-off drainage better, so that towns and villages flood less often, and bio-diversity is improved, why is that not a win all around?

A better policy for agriculture is in all our best interests. Food produced in the UK, without transport costs and to high welfare standards helps everyone. No, with a population between 65-68m, we can't grow it all here, and bananas will always need a warmer climate than the UK, even post-climate-change, but Brexit is an opportunity to improve things. The new proposals from the DoE are going in the right direction. Allied to a sensible seasonal agricultural labour migration scheme, there shouldn't be crops rotting in the fields, or shortages of any vegetables or meat.

If leaving the EU is how we can reframe agricultural subsidy policies better (small upland farms that are only suitable for rearing sheep are always going to need some subsidy), and we can also use the opportunity to incentivise farmers to manage water-courses and run-off drainage better, so that towns and villages flood less often, and bio-diversity is improved, why is that not a win all around

UK govt always had the option to use Pillar 2 CAP funding (co funded) to do the the things you suggest.
Instead they focused more on Pillar 1 (income support) because that isn't co funded, hence cheaper.

Govt should fund the EA to help with upland water management, they don't and they won't in future either, you can't leave these infrastructure projects to a farmer.

We have the ability to grow our own food, we always have done but we don't have the land mass, the labour or the climate to produce all we require, at the cost the consumer is willing to pay.

I live in a former market gardening area, no one grows anything much now, can't compete with sunnier climes.

Farming subsidies are to be cut by a minimum of half by 2024. You’re obviously aware that many farmers are dependent on those subsidies to stay profitable. They face major cuts without any obvious way of developing other income streams.

Minette Batters, president of the National Farmer’s Union commented: Expecting farmers to run viable, high-cost farm businesses, continue to produce food and increase their environmental delivery, while phasing out existing support and without a complete replacement scheme for almost three years is high risk and a very big ask.

The cuts are expected to reduce the income of livestock farmers, for example, by 60% to 80% by 2024.

Expect your beef and dairy cattle farmers to be a whole lot poorer in 3 years.

XingMIng - at least your post is considered and you have thought about it.

I imagine myself that the UK suffered from the CAP by not joining the EEC until it was already up and running. If they had had the vision to get in at the beginning, then it might have been better shaped to suit our own agriculture.

I don't know whether the ideas you discuss could have been implemented within a framework of EU rules, or whether if not, we could have been pro-active and used our influence. I would imagine that your farmers would have common cause with farmers in Brittany and Normandy so jointly pressure for reform could have been brought to bear.

For me the problem for the last 30 years and especially of the last ten, thinking about the rules and areas I do know about, it's nearly always not been a question that the EU has imposed the rule, it's been that the UK hasn't bothered to make the necessary representations. Instead it's been whine, whine whine for special deals and then the EU is used as a convenient excuse for Westminster failings.

As for your last sentence, the word "sensible" seems unknown to the current government.

Agriculture is only a small part of our economy now, but we haven't been able to feed our population since about the 1850s. I am desperate to see some people with vision but who have a commitment to the whole of society.

I live in a former market gardening area, no one grows anything much now, can't compete with sunnier climes.

And also tastes have changed. We can grow 100 varieties of apples in the U.K. But people want to eat fresh bananas, pineapple, mango, pomegranate, avocados etc.

.

But Xing Ming's thoughts aren't without merit.

You can imagine how Brexit should have been tackled:
A properly conducted and financed referendum with a threshold for change set quite high. If that was met then a considered response with input from interested parties like Xing Mings, but it would have to be balanced against other competing interests. Then a suggestion as to the way forward.

Instead when less than 10% of the populace thought a lot about the EU, the ERG tail wagged the Tory dog, Cameron panicked, May panicked and Johnson continued to lie and cheat and we are out with a thin agreement, rules in disarray and no one much very happy.,

My understanding is that the new rules/guidance would not have been permissible under the CAP. And I think we might have joined the EEC earlier had CdG not vetoed entry (twice). Your point about alliance with Brittany and Normandy is noted.

True, agriculture is a small part of the UK economy, but we all need to eat! Food, and food security should be an important consideration for any governing party. Sensible is not an adjective that has often been associated with any government of any political party in recent times.

And while I thank you for your kind words about my considered post, it's not my first.

XingMing you make some interesting points about the CAP, and mention James Rebanks. I know very little about farming but coincidentally read his article last month, posted by someone on here. He explains things clearly, and basically absolutely slates the government’s replacement strategy for farming. He is not happy.

Brexit is a betrayal of Britain’s farmers

unherd.com/2020/12/brexit-will-ruin-britains-farms/

Farming subsidies are going to be cut, but they will be replaced by subsidies for bio-diversity and landscape/environmental management, which will end up being more generous for upland/marginal farmers. It won't simply be £x per acre, which benefits mainly agri-businesses with thousands of acres, but will be paid for maintaining AND IMPROVING habitats.

We might have joined the EEC at the beginning, but Churchill was still more enamoured of the Commonwealth and the 'Special' relationship with the US.

With the Commonwealth - we cut and run from just about all the colonies, and Suez should have taught the UK that the relationship with the US wasn't so special after all.

Brexiters tend to take valid concerns and conclude that the way to tackle them is to leave the EU. Which imo is a complete non-sequitur.

You don’t need to leave the EU to encourage environmentally friendly farming.

The Tories are not hacking farm subsidies because they give a fuck about over-productivity, they’d be quite happy to promote GM crops and chlorinated chicken if they could. They just don’t want replace EU subsidies (and can’t afford to) and are ideologically anti state support.

I think reforming the CAP is possibly one of the genuine benefits of Brexit, and have said that for years, and, from what I've read, James Rebanks is transitioning/has transitioned to farming in a way that we absolutely should support. My worry is that it's this shower of absolute incompetents in charge. I don't trust them to get anything right.