The Silence is Deafening

[Crankley]

For the last however long, I have read threads and posts by Remainers stating confidently that the Prime Minister wanted a No Deal, would get a No Deal. Here are just a few quotes. Some Remainers may recognise their own predictions:

'He is going to give us No Deal and then fuck off into the sunset with millons in bungs from his crooked mates,'

'I'm pretty certain on no deal...'

'I fully expect a No Deal Brexit.'

'Bojo will 'deliver' no deal and then F off into the sunset'

'Boris Johnson and your disingenuous divs - How dare you try and spin a NoDeal'

'He was elected to not get a deal and to make his supporters feel good about the fact the had stuck it to the man (or something).'

There are lots more if you want them.

Now he has obtained a deal, where are all the threads by remainers? Do any have the the guts to hold up their hand up and say 'I was wrong'?

Can someone explain the benefits to Financial Services

@Corcory Fair enough if you don't rate the opinion piece but please at least challenge it. Show me why I am going to be better off unemployed now that my company is leaving the UK because it can't be competitive when European companies such as Google and Facebook don't want to pay tariffs on the services we provide them? Ditto for my friend in advertising/marketing and my friend who works in HR for a company that does transactional accounting in the City that now can't process transactions in Euros because we don't have passporting rights.

Show me what is going to replace the finance sector as our primary business creating hundreds of thousands of jobs and biggest revenue generator for the treasury to invest in public services such as health and education.

At the moment we are 14 pages into this thread and I have provided plenty of examples of how Brexit is going to be bad, yes many of them are just from my perspective and my circle but no one has answered them other than to attack us as not being patriotic or just posting Union Jack emojis.

All that just plays up to the inward looking Union Jack waving DM reader with the faux sense of nostalgia and entitlement for a time and a place that doesn't or just didn't exist. The world is an international place, increasingly so and we are (or should be) far far better off - literally, metaphorically, any way - inside a trading block than outside it, trying to get deals that are actually worse than we already have, particularly with what will likely be three big economic areas in the coming decades (USA, China, EU). To be outside of that is insanity. We import far more than we export. We are not a superpower.

If the Guardian is not to ones taste, how about Sky?
news.sky.com/story/brexit-deal-offers-relief-for-businesses-but-little-cause-for-celebration-12171972

or how about the trendy lefties at the Economist
www.economist.com/britain/2020/12/24/britain-and-the-european-union-agree-on-the-hardest-brexit

@ListeningQuietly I knew someone would pull me up on posting a Guardian piece. I posted a New York Times one earlier that no Brexiteer commented on.

The funny thing is The Guardian's Economic Editor is a staunch Brexiteer.

Better to read the FT for a considered appreciation of where Johnson is leading the UK. Up sh*t creek without a paddle.

Sally
Ah yes, Larry they keep comments closed on my articles now Elliott
he is a disciple of Minford
with all that entails

Larry is on fine form here
www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/why-boris-johnson-perfectly-happy-own-brexit-trade-deal
Lots of feelz

Johnson is happy to “own” his trade deal because it allows him to say that he will use the freedom provided to address the grievances of leave voters. He would be delighted to see Labour oppose it.

From the above. Of course Johnson is going to say he's delighted with his deal. But the grievances of the Red Wall voters had sweet FA to do with the EU, so that easy excuse goes. What good is a promise of tax cuts to someone whose earnings are below the personal allowance threshold? Housing, transport, and secure work are some of the things which will appeal to these voters. Nothing stopped the Tories from investing here. Nothing is stopping them now - well reduced tax take from Covid wrecking the economy, in the short term.

I think myself that Starmer should just tell his MPs to abstain. Johnson's deal would still get through.

Sorry, should I have used my invaluable vote and go against my strong belief that we are better off out due to a few scrotes?

I'm not sure what a 'scrote' is [suspect it might relate to some part of male anatomy]... but did Putin, Orban, Trump, Salvini, as well as the EDL and British First ALL being in favour of Brexit not lead to you any tiny pause or fraction of a hesitation in sharing their fervent support to Leave?

To wonder why these extreme far right, ruthless, zenophobic, authoritarian, misogynistic, violent, and racist men would be putting time, money, and resources to actively encouraging the UK to leave? No, none of that brought up any concerns for you? At all?

Apparently not...

I understand not everyone shares the liberal left worldview from the Guardian. It would still be great if any of the leave voters on here could take the points in the Brexit editorial and say why they think they are right or wrong. It's ok to not agree but why not say why? For example for a starting point, do you disagree with the OBR figures saying that a hard Brexit will reduce UK GDP in the medium term by 4%? And what is the reason why?

I don't understand why you can't go into details when asked, I think it has hindered any discussion or move towards some kind of consensus over the last four years.

Regarding immigration, am I right in thinking that some other EU countries had stricter rules on immigration than we did? For example, having to get a job within several months of moving to another EU country?

The Guardian isn’t just about woolly liberal world views. It’s also about solid left wing economics.

Which part of the phrase ‘rentier economy’ do you have a disagreement with?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/27/the-guardian-view-on-britain-out-of-the-eu-a-treasure-island-for-rentiers

I will happily agree with anyone who says that the match of some strange extreme left wing ethics with solid economics is an unfortunate one. More than happily, and I wish the left wing parties would take note of that.

@Corcory

Well Sally067 you really honestly think that what is written in an editorial in the Observer should be on the school curriculum!! So do you honestly think this piece is totally unbiased, factual and correct in every way? You must be totally mad. That was one of the worst editorial pieces I've ever read, it's so loaded with bias it's untrue. And you think Lavers have been brain washed!!

But can you please say why? None of the leavers here are challenging the points in it, or answering our questions on how things are going to be better now we've left the EU. The actual tangible economic and social benefits of leaving. And no one has been since 2016. I can only assume that the unwillingness to answer this pretty reasonable and straightforward question means that they don't actually have an answer. Because if they did, why wouldn't they just give it?

However I did see Kelvin Mackenzie tweet on Christmas Day that we should have a referendum on bringing back Capital Punishment

Interestingly, one of the strongest predictors of support for Brexit, was support for the death penalty. It strongly correlated with Brexit voting intention much more than with age, sex, geographical location, or income.

Personally, if this deal is actually signed into law, which is not a done deal yet, then I'm expecting to see that much lauded 'state subsidy support' will end up in the pockets of the likes of Faculty. A bit more of that chumocracy that we've come to know in the pandemic.

eprints.lse.ac.uk/67546/7/Hobolt_The%20Brexit%20vote%20a%20divided%20.pdf

Mayyoulive
The Rentier Economy is the biggest threat we face.
It has caused the rise of populism
and is seen as a problem by the intelligent Right as well
www.economist.com/by-invitation/2020/05/20/guy-standing-on-how-lockdowns-make-the-case-for-a-basic-income

@MrsKypp

Financial services bring in a truly huge amount of money to the UK. Not included in the agreement.

Music, the arts, culture, not included.

'New' trade deals are just to try to get what we already had as EU members.

Quality of life in the UK will fall significantly due to Brexit. The most idiotic self harming thing ever.

Not to mention non tariff barriers, additional checks, red tape, inspections, delays... all add cost and means less trade with the EU because UK goods become less competitive.

Even professional qualifications will no longer be automatically recognised.

Bojo says he is disappointed with the Financial Services deal.... err BJ...there isn't one.

Haven't read the whole thread, but OP I just wanted to say you are totally right - and do you think that any of them (including the many thousands on Twitter who KNEW that Boris wanted No Deal ) will acknowledge that they were wrong?

OF COURSE THEY WON'T!!!

The Rentier Economy is the biggest threat we face.

Agreed. Actually I think most people would, if they understood the term: its attitudes and practices are behind most of Britain’s widely-recognised problems. Which is why it is very frustrating for factual economics arguments to be lumped in together with and attacked on debatable ethical grounds.

@sally067

I'd like to know the views / reactions to that editorial from the leavers on here.

None of them have replied to any of my points on this thread (or others). I will likely lose my job and our company will relocate because of Brexit, they don't realise that hundreds of thousands of professional people don't want to become fishermen or fruit pickers.

Beyond posting Union Jack flags, saying the words 'sovereignty' and 'will of the people' they don't really have any other answers.

I find it amazing having read back through history that we still decide things based on referendums, hopefully this will be the last one we see in this country, you can't decide complex political decisions on referendums that are mostly based on emotions. If any treaty or trade deal was decided on referendum I doubt any would go through. However I did see Kelvin Mackenzie tweet on Christmas Day that we should have a referendum on bringing back Capital Punishment.

sally067 Hi Sally,

I read the Observer peice earlier today and my view on it/responses to it are:

First things first, this is the Observer. Any Brexit deal, no matter what it's content would be condemned in similar terms to the one we actually have got. Their reaction can be summised as "We really don't like Brexit and we don't like Boris Johnson either".

According to the Observer, this is truly apololyptic stuff, "One of the greatest ever deceits inflicted on the British electorate"; "act of national harm"....and that's just the first 2 paragraphs.

They do say one thing early that I found interesting "enduring consequences for Britain in the coming decades" I fervently hope this is true. I rather suspect the Observer hopes it isn't.

The peice then divides into 4 sub headings. I'll write you a quick response to each:

A serious price: My reaction: Obviously there will be new barriers, thats obviously true. Then the Obs starts talking about the EU being "much more than an economic project". I suppose thats true too, it shouldnt' be IMO but it became so. They express sadness, I feel elation. I have yet to live even one day free from its structures and I am looking forward to Britain charting her own course as far as we can. I actually agree with them about nation states acting in consort to some degree, but they must always remain nation states, not be subsumed into a super state. A price? Sure but one well worth paying for me.

Rightwing ideologues. My reaction: I think they just mean those with a right leaning POV. They talk about the "least divisive Brexit" but their Citizen's Assembly point is a nonsense. No option on indicative votes in Parliament secured support, none. Basically, they want no Brexit, or an unoticeable Brexit. I hope change is coming. I know it not going to be as much as I'd like, not as fast as I'd like but I'm hopeful.

Deepening Rifts: My reaction: wow they seem very sure about all this!! The economic damage will be stark, well lets see.Then they talk about "costs to personal freedoms", sorry Observer, talk to me about the costs of something I actually value. I value my personal freedom hugely, freedom to vote for reprentatives to make the laws that govern me for one. Freedom to study, live, love in another country, no, those things are of no value or use to me whatsoever.

An almghty struggle ahead: My reaction, "Return to government in the national interest", says the Obs, and "A more visionary Prime Minister to rebuild". Well I hope exitin the EU will lead to that centring of the "national interest" though I suspect my construction of the national interest is one far removed from the Observer's. Overall they basically want us to go back and forget the whole thing ever happened, because that's what's in the interests of their readership.

Overall I don't feel sadness, I feel satisfied that finally, after so long, the sliding doors are opening.

I'd like to know the views / reactions to that editorial from the leavers on here.

I wouldn't normally expect a quality editorial to rely on out of date links to InFacts and The London Economic (both funded by donations) - it's obviously not a quality editorial.

Show me why I am going to be better off unemployed now that my company is leaving the UK because it can't be competitive when European companies such as Google and Facebook don't want to pay tariffs on the services we provide them?

Not sure how this affects you;

16 December -
"Facebook users in the UK will be overseen by the company's US headquarters and rules after Brexit, the company has announced."

"At the moment, people using Facebook in the UK are governed by Facebook Ireland, which mean they are covered by the EU's regulations."

"Facebook’s announcement follows a similar change by Google, announced in February."

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-
tech/facebook-uk-brexit-us-california-gdpr-privacy-protections-b1774918.html

"Google commits to vast London office despite rise of remote working."

"The establishment of a Google campus in the area could accelerate the creation of a tech hub, with Facebook due to become a future neighbour with the development of its own building in Kings Cross."

www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jul/28/google-commits-to-vast-london-office-despite-rise-of-remote-working

Can someone explain the benefits to Financial Services

Obvious benefits to the city from the UK-Japan trade deal explained here;
www.cityam.com/finance-not-fish-the-trade-deal-with-japan-focuses-on-what-matters-for-the-city/

Then the Obs starts talking about the EU being "much more than an economic project". I suppose thats true too, it shouldnt' be IMO but it became so.

Then you need, urgently, to read some 20rh century history, because they’re right on that point. The beginnings of the EU are to be found in the agreements that secured peace at the end of WW2 between France and Germany: tying together their economies was done to stop war from breaking out again as it had just done for the third time in less than 100 years, resulting in the virtual destruction of human lives across this continent.

Freedom to study, live, love in another country, no, those things are of no value or use to me whatsoever.
From a Citizen of the country that sent people out to explore and then conquer and then liberate the whole world
I find that insularity very, very sad.

Not to mention non tariff barriers, additional checks, red tape, inspections, delays... all add cost and means less trade with the EU because UK goods become less competitive.

Give them another few days to gloat and pat themselves on the back.
We’ll see what happens as from 1st Jan.

Let's see if the penny finally drops on the difference between tariff-free trade and being in a CU and SM with FOM for goods, services, capital, data & workers, a banking passport, 1st-party membership access to EU agencies, programmes and databases e

If everything is still peachy and there's no issues, then I and all fellow remoaners can gladly disappear into the sunset and sunlit uplands along with all the unicorns and fairies.

@ListeningQuietly

Freedom to study, live, love in another country, no, those things are of no value or use to me whatsoever. From a Citizen of the country that sent people out to explore and then conquer and then liberate the whole world I find that insularity very, very sad.

It’s very sad but it’s also very sad that anyone would wish to deprive others of that right just because they don’t want it for themselves.

That 20th century history answers some of your personal freedom points too. What the heck does freedom mean in a country where the facts needed to choose freedom are confused with emotions and ethics when convenient or even said not to exist? As for our national interest, is that really best served by Johnson serving up jingoistic, nationalist hatred against the French? Where is he planning on taking that exactly? I don’t find war to be in national interests at all. It is however regularly used by politicians to solidify support and hide their own failings.