Westministenders: Festive Edition

[RedToothBrush]

Good King BBBBaBoris looked out,
on the Port of Dover,
There the shit lay round about,
Deep around the stopover;
Brightly shone the moon that night,
Tho’ the frost was cruel,
When a poor man came in sight,
Delivering stuff for Yule.

“Bugger SAGE and stand by me,
We've all stuff that needs selling,
Yonder peasant, who is he?
Where and what his dwelling?”
“Sire, he lives a good league hence,
The other side the EU;
Though relations maybe tense,
He's trying to get goods through.”

“Oh god I need another wine,
I have many crisis to consider:
We must tell them its all fine,
I must not be seen to dither.”
SAGE and monarch, forth they went,
forth they went together;
Through the nation's sad lament
and really crappy weather.

“Sire, our plight is darker now,
And the covid transmission stronger;
Fails my heart, I know not how;
To keep Tier 2 much longer.”
“Soon we can drop their wage.
And treat them all more coldly
In Britain's new chrony age
A time to rob more boldly.”

In their master’s steps they trod,
On the quest to get minted;
Each and every last sod
Needs to be fingerprinted.
Therefore, Christian men, be sure,
DWP claimants are processing,
Ye who now will bless the poor,
God its all so depressing.

Oxford vacinne has just been approved! Thank goodness for that!
Expect almost all the country to be on Tier 4 or 5 by tomorrow.
Schools won't open till 11th.
Starmer cannot do more than he is doing. An 80 seat majority will always win and he hasn't given up on Europe at all. It's 4 years till next election and in the meanwhile this Government will own all of the shit show and Starmer will sit back and wait. The people will see for themselves and when they do the Tory party will be but a bad memory.

This looks as though it’s shaping up to be an interesting day. I predict the unworkable and dangerous schools testing plan will be quietly abandoned, and vaccinations of over 16s in schools and colleges rolled out instead. Vaccination is easier to do than testing, they will sell it as saving exams and it will generate lots of useful data in a highly infectious environment. Disclaimer: I don’t endorse this idea. But if I could think of it, someone in government can.

If Labour back the deal they will be in no position to hold the Tories to account for the fallouts from Brexit.

On the face of it, moving on from Brexit seems sensible but it simply gives the Tories a free pass. The Conservatives still use the 2008 economic crash as a stick to beat Labour with. Starmer should do the same with Brexit but backing the deal he will be unable to do this with any credibility.

Don't expect "the people" on their own to hold the Tories to account, they usually get a free pass on everything. The handling of COVID being the latest example.

If Labour back the deal then my membership disappears with it. Politically homeless is not a good place to be, but there we go.

I think Starmer should be bold enough to weather tedious accusations about being a Remainer. But there are no good options for him here.
Abstain will be seen as cowardice.
Yes will be seen as betrayal.
No isn't even an option because it's a vote for national suicide

I'd rather be a coward than a traitor. But it's a tough call.

It looks like Labour hope Brexit will go away after 1st Jan. That's the problem with trying to be all things to all people, particuarly if you do not explain to the "red wall" that notions of patriotism at the expense of economic security isn't a sensible long term choice. Its a cop out and portrays a party without any real conviction.

Starmer cannot do more than he is doing. An 80 seat majority will always win and he hasn't given up on Europe at all. It's 4 years till next election and in the meanwhile this Government will own all of the shit show and Starmer will sit back and wait. The people will see for themselves and when they do the Tory party will be but a bad memory.

Given that Johnson has an 80 seat majority and that the ERG are going to back him to get it through, albeit with a view of destroying it later and going for No Deal, then I think Starmer's best option now is to allow a free vote.

This way those who genuinely think that this is the best option for their constituents can vote for it, those who want to make a statement that it's a Tory project can abstain/vote against.

But if Labour thinks the issue will go away, then they are sadly mistaken.

Completely agree Peregrina.

There are good logical and practical arguments for voting in favour and for abstention. Personally I couldn't pick between those strategies so I would leave it up to MPs.

I personally think that voting against is not appropriate for a main opposition party, because it's a vote in favour of no deal. But opinions on this differ and I think we should respect MP's judgement on this.

In the interview, Starmer says Labour has to support the Deal because if, for any reason, the UK ended up with No Deal that would be catastrophic for the country. So I get what he's saying.

Given SNP, DUP etc are abstaining and if there were enough Tory rebels, which is doubtful because the ERG have given their stamp of approval worryingly, then there would be a slim chance of the deal not be passing with a majority. In such a scenario, then Labour would end up being blamed for a No Deal fall out.

It's probably a no win situation for Labour. Support it and it's a mess and the Tories and their pals in the press will forever use Labour's support as a diversionary scapegoat to beat them up. But if Labour abstains, then the Tories and their pals in the press will forever use that to beat them up either way (whether the deal passes or not).

Clearly dropping any focus on or discussion of the EU is in a bid to regain the Red Wall votes. But the tiny flicker of my pilot flame of hope just died on the realisation that he has entirely given up on the 'European project'.

I admit, I was hoping that Starmer would become something of a John Smith figure, who laid the groundwork for Blair's subsequent landslide majority, but at the moment, I am feeling disappointed.

then Labour would end up being blamed for a No Deal fall out.

If the UK had sensible politics it could simply be pointed out that it wasn't so long ago that "no deal better than a bad deal" was being used as leverage. It could also be pointed out that not long ago a border in the Irish sea was a "red line". Ultimately the country that once held "all the cards" is now desperate to simply to stay in the game.

I admit, I was hoping that Starmer would become something of a John Smith figure, who laid the groundwork for Blair's subsequent landslide majority, but at the moment, I am feeling disappointed

It might sound ridiculous now but back in 1997 the electorate expected a better standard from its politicians than it does today. It wasn't all about Blair the Tories being mired in sleeze was partly why the electorate kicked them out. A culture war means that doesn't matter now.

@Peregrina

Starmer cannot do more than he is doing. An 80 seat majority will always win and he hasn't given up on Europe at all. It's 4 years till next election and in the meanwhile this Government will own all of the shit show and Starmer will sit back and wait. The people will see for themselves and when they do the Tory party will be but a bad memory.

Given that Johnson has an 80 seat majority and that the ERG are going to back him to get it through, albeit with a view of destroying it later and going for No Deal, then I think Starmer's best option now is to allow a free vote.

This way those who genuinely think that this is the best option for their constituents can vote for it, those who want to make a statement that it's a Tory project can abstain/vote against.

But if Labour thinks the issue will go away, then they are sadly mistaken.

I largely agree here Peregrina regarding a free vote I'm not sure why Starmer isn't doing that, think that better for him and for Labour than any of the options Vote For/Abstain/Vote Against

I could live with a free vote - I just couldn't bring myself to be aligned in support of this Tory Brexit deal.

Whatever happens, we are stuck with the tories for the next three years. Lucky us.

@bornatXmastobequiet

This looks as though it’s shaping up to be an interesting day. I predict the unworkable and dangerous schools testing plan will be quietly abandoned, and vaccinations of over 16s in schools and colleges rolled out instead. Vaccination is easier to do than testing, they will sell it as saving exams and it will generate lots of useful data in a highly infectious environment. Disclaimer: I don’t endorse this idea. But if I could think of it, someone in government can.

It would also ease fears about a repeat of this year when the new University cohort start next year if they've been vaccinated at school. That might be asking a bit much in terms of forward planning, but could be factor if they're considering this.

Technically, there is no such option as a "vote for No Deal".

There is a vote for or against THIS deal.

Which is exactly what BJ wanted: to bounce people into the invidious choice.

Which is precisely why Starmer shouldn't be drawn into his game and a share of the blame when it goes tits up and vote for the deal because it's the only deal on the table

Labour had nothing to do with negotiating the deal and therefore should have nothing to do with validating it - although I agree that a compromise would be for Starmer to allow a free vote that way the Lexiter Corbyn can vote for it to allow the Red Wall that fell anyway Labour MPs vote for it if it is indeed something that they genuinely want that way they can own it too

I gather that both Lab and Lib have turned their backs on Europe, and so I have nobody to extinguish my burning hair. But, circumstances (31 Jan 2020 and now 31 Dec 2020 and this thin Deal that has at least delayed the effects of a crash-out) have made it less of a conflagration and more of a dismal smouldering, anyway.

So this, plus the ongoing erasure of Woman = Adult Human Female, makes me completely politically homeless.

If we get another election anytime soon, I think I'll spoil my ballot with drawings of cocks-n-balls surrounded by stars.

Technically, there is no such option as a "vote for No Deal". There is a vote for or against THIS deal.

You must be psychic - Ian Blackford just said exactly this in the HoC

I wasn't listening, honest

BJ's word vomit describing how this was an opportunity for the country to come together to leave desiccated arguments behind was enough to stop me

If we get another election anytime soon, I think I'll spoil my ballot with drawings of cocks-n-balls surrounded by stars.

Be careful with this one. I have been at Counts. If you put your cock-n-balls next to a candidates name it can get counted as a vote for!
It doesn't just go on the nod, the returning officer calls the candidates and their agents together to go through the doubtful ones, but it's risky.

Put 'they are all a bunch of wankers' then that counts as a spoilt ballot.

Ah, I just tuned in and caught the end of Treeza’s speech, so fortunately missed Johnson’s word salad.

Speaking of word vomit, although I have generally avoided most Brexit threads apart from this one, I note from some lurking about, that the TruBrexitannianBeLeavers on recent active threads are weirdly angry - trumpeting and belligerently angry It's so strange 🤔

Still goading that We lost, get over it. Not able to give a proper list of what we have gained. Only the usual 'sovereignty, free from the ECJ' etc.

I think any chances of the UK rejoining the EU are generations away. If attainable at all.

I think the focus needs to go from wasting time even trying and turning that energy and fury into how it happened. Because it was a rigged vote from the off and the country has been lied to on a scale not seen since Goebbels made it the default for Nazism.

If we tolerate this, our children will be next, as the Manics once said.

Labour do themselves no favours by backing a course of action that was fraudulently won - stolen money is never yours to spend.

Ugh, just looked at BBC Parliament and had to turn off immediately because Bill Cash was pontificating on something he said to Margaret Thatcher in 1990 (apparently she asked his opinion on Europe) and managing to condescendingly sound as though he did her a favour by enlightening her.
Twat.