Facing the future

[TomMRiddle]

What do you want to see happen?

What do you think is likely?

Me?

I think that a bare bones deal will be agreed and Boris will claim victory over the EU. Then anything that goes wrong will be the EU punishing us for leaving. The impact of the vote will never be admitted.

What would I like to see happen?

I'd like to see the UK and EU have a comprehensive trade deal, but without the 4 freedoms so Brexit can have been said to have happened.

I think that a bare bones deal will be agreed and Boris will claim victory over the EU

I agree, I think this is most likely.

I agree, and any shortcomings will be the EU's fault. This will be a good excuse for at least 5 years, possibly ten. As now, it's still all Labour's fault.....

Oh yes.

It will also be Labour's fault.

As it appears the handling of the coronavirus is.

More whining, Tom. Nobody is blaming Labour for the current situation. Frankly, just having an Irish passport makes the inevitable horribleness easier to bear.

Correction: I blame Labour for the massive majority. Which would never have happened with a decent leader even if they'd list. But Coronovirus? Nope, not Labour's fault. And Burnham (who I dislike) has shown what a half decent Labour person can do with twatty Tories. Starmer is starting to show up the Tories but facing a massive majority is an uphill struggle.

@bellinisurge

Correction: I blame Labour for the massive majority. Which would never have happened with a decent leader even if they'd list. But Coronovirus? Nope, not Labour's fault. And Burnham (who I dislike) has shown what a half decent Labour person can do with twatty Tories. Starmer is starting to show up the Tories but facing a massive majority is an uphill struggle.

A Biden win makes an EU deal more likely.

Johnson would have behaved in exactly the same way with a 40 seat majority.

I do laugh when tory remainers who voted tory in 2019, blame labour for the mess we are in, we've got Bojo for the next 3/4 years and that makes our predicament far worse than if Labour had won.

I think the recent Supreme Court appointment makes a Biden victory more likely. They have nothing to play for with Trump so they might as well let him go.
Just to be clear. I'm not a fucking Tory.

I do laugh when tory remainers who voted tory in 2019, blame labour for the mess we are in, we've got Bojo for the next 3/4 years and that makes our predicament far worse than if Labour had won.

Corbyn was close to winning in 2017 and may well have done had he not been undermined by sections of his own party. May only called that election because she was supposed to get a stonking majority.

It is too simplistic to blame the current situation on what happened in 2016 and 2019. Remainers stuck in their own echo chamber, people swallowing the smears against Corbyn, people who believe a Tony Blair style figure is needed, people who sat on their hands all helped lead the UK to this point.

Starmer is behind in the opinion polls I have seen despite many claiming any other leader than Corbyn would be 20 points ahead. That thought process hadn't even factored COVID in!

"Undermining" an anti semite enabler is wholly legitimate.
But as the op is about facing the future: Johnson will limp along. At the end of the transition we'll have either a disaster or a fucking disaster, depending on whether we get a deal. Next general election will see Starmer as pm and the grown ups back in charge.

Undermining" an anti semite enabler is wholly legitimate.

Failure to accept JC as leader will damage Labour in the long term, lose them grass roots support. People will remember.

www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/were-labours-antisemitism-failures-really-corbyns-fault/

Next general election will see Starmer as pm and the grown ups back in charge.

I guess those hungry kids will just have to wait patiently for 4 years. Oh and we get another 4 years of the hostile environment. Great news for minorities. Ironic.

Perhaps if Labour hadn't had a shit leader we would have a half decent Labour Party tackling this crisis. Nice deflection. You can care about children not getting fed AND rising antisemitism enabled by Corbyn and the Tories. The two aren't incompatible. It's how the grown up world works.

"People will remember " but they aren't allowed to remember JC's disgusting pandering to antisemites or the IRA. Same as they aren't allowed to remember Johnson planning to get a journalist beaten up. Or him using disgusting racial slurs. Or leaving his wife while she was undergoing cancer treatment.
"People will remember " is the kind of patronising shite that people remember.

Perhaps if Labour hadn't had a shit leader we would have a half decent Labour Party tackling this crisis.

I repeat if he hadn't have been undermined by sections of his own party he may well have won.

Its no good complaining about the shit state the country is in particurlarly wrt social inequality if you've essentially waved the party of austerity through by sitting on your hands. Not everyone has the resources to wait 4 years (14 in total) to be "saved".

It's how the grown up world works.

The grown up world involves facts and critical thinking.

Yawn. "JC did nothing wrong. It's the people's fault ". Classic Millitant/Momentum bollocks.

"People will remember " is the kind of patronising shite that people remember.

Shame people can't remember things like New Labour's dealings with Libya.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/28/tony-blair-refuses-to-be-questioned-over-ira-and-gaddafi

www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/09/how-britain-did-gaddafis-dirty-work-libya

@bellinisurge

"Undermining" an anti semite enabler is wholly legitimate. But as the op is about facing the future: Johnson will limp along. At the end of the transition we'll have either a disaster or a fucking disaster, depending on whether we get a deal. Next general election will see Starmer as pm and the grown ups back in charge.

I'm not sure about that.

The UK has a significant older population that likes the tories and who vote.
We also have a press that has a very widespread circulation, if not in pure sales and they love to smear Labour and their leaders.

So much of the damage brexit has caused can be hidden away by the Cv crisis.

As i said, a lot will depend on the US election.

More yawn. Just join the SWP for heaven's sake. I'm perfectly capable of remembering all the shitty things done by both Labour governments and Tory ones. And coalition ones. I'm in my 50s.
The only kind of Labour government that gets elected is a relatively centrist one . They fuck up. They make improvements to people's lives.
Corbynesque parties don't get into government no matter how much they wank about how pure they are. Michael Foot - who was a decent intellect unlike Corbyn- never made it. It won't happen. Compromise and get Labour in.

The only kind of Labour government that gets elected is a relatively centrist one

There is nothing centrist about neo liberal Thatcherite economics and foreign invasion.

New Labours legacy is toxic it alienated;

Small town voters that feared increased migration would undermine jobs/wages
The left of the party that oppposed neo liberalism
Centrists that opposed the Iraq war.

Subsequent Labour leaders have been hamstrung by Blairism and its toxic legacy.

The media also hammer Labour leaders (except Blair who had Murdoch's support) - look at the treatment inoffensive middle of the road Milliband received. Corbyn had to handle the media and his own party.

Its not more yawn at all, nor is it about SWP !

Do you not remember how Miliband got crucified for how he ate a burger?
Imagine what the popular press would do to a labour leader who had 6 kids by 4 different woman? sacked twice for lying and cheated on his poorly wife?

Johnsons Tories are far to the right of even Thatcher, what does that say about our electorate?

Yes I do. It doesn't matter. Yes the press tend to be shit to Labour leaders. But Corbyn WAS shit.

"Johnsons Tories are far to the right of even Thatcher, "
No idea whether you are old enough to have lived through Thatcher. I did. She was every bit as right wing as these twats. She was better at it.

Thatcher would never have endorsed Brexit let alone no deal. She would likely have faced down the euro-sceptics in her party. The likes of UKIP would never have been able to flourish.

I don't recall anything like the hostile environment in the 80's.

The far right were are on the fringes.

I don't recall anything like the hostile environment in the 80's.
The far right were are on the fringes.

I do not know where you grew up in the 80's
but the skinheads and the racist graffiti and the Deptford fire and the Steven Lawrence murder were pretty standard stuff.

Racism was VERY mainstream
Homophobia was very mainstream
Religious intolerance was very mainstream
Sexism and misogyny were utterly mainstream

in the early 2000's we thought we had grown up
we were kidding ourselves

My point is the far right is far more organised/'legitimised'/emboldened today than it was in the recent past.

What @ListeningQuietly said. You know not of what you speak if you think that shit was on the fringes back then.
Which is code for "you know fuck all"