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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Tunnel or Bridge

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2020 15:18

Apparently negotiations are in the black hole of the EU tunnel or should that be on the back of the fantasy of the Boris Bridge?

Another week closer to complete meltdown.

I'm guessing that our world beating customs solution will be based on blackboard and chalk.

OP posts:
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LouiseCollins28 · 15/10/2020 11:14

Mayor of London announcing lockdown is certainly not funny. Mayor of London looking like a prick while announcing lockdown is funny 😂

The Greater Manchester discussions are getting interesting from what I’m seeing on the Guardian politics live blog

BigChocFrenzy · 15/10/2020 11:19

@LouiseCollins28

Mayor of London announcing lockdown is certainly not funny. Mayor of London looking like a prick while announcing lockdown is funny 😂

The Greater Manchester discussions are getting interesting from what I’m seeing on the Guardian politics live blog

... Funny how so many Tories nitpick at the tiniest detail of the Muslim mayor of London

He really became a Tory hate figure from that very nasty mayoral election campaign they ran against him

ListeningQuietly · 15/10/2020 11:21

Mayor of London looking like a prick while announcing lockdown is funny
Prime Minister being a prick by causing the appalling handling of both COVID and Brexit
would be funny
were it not so fucking serious for those of us affected Angry

DGRossetti · 15/10/2020 11:23

Just to add to the fun ..

www.theguardian.com/business/2020/oct/14/national-grid-warns-of-short-supply-of-electricity-over-next-few-days

Who would have thought that relying on windmills and solar crony power would fail when needed ? (And notice how stories like this never quite make it into the cheerleaders for renewables threads ...)

LouiseCollins28 · 15/10/2020 11:28

Funnily enough DGR I actually quite like the guy. I wouldn’t know enough about the impact of what he’s done in London since I don’t live there and even visit only rarely but most of the time when I’ve seen him on the telly I’ve been quite impressed. There was a point when Labour MPs were going after Corbyn big time where I thought that Sadiq Khan was about the best nationally known figure Labour had in their fold.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/10/2020 11:34

Scottish voters' opinions on party leaders

They really don't think much of BJ
but it is interesting that approval of NS is so much higher than support for INdy

Westminstenders: The Tunnel or Bridge
Sostenueto · 15/10/2020 11:46

Manchester still holding out! More meetings today. My Andy Burnham putting up a fight! Good for him! He's fighting for more financial help and he believes tier 3 not good enough to make a difference. Go north go!

DGRossetti · 15/10/2020 11:51

@BigChocFrenzy

Scottish voters' opinions on party leaders

They really don't think much of BJ
but it is interesting that approval of NS is so much higher than support for INdy

Well from South of the Border all I've seen is someone who has remained calm and clearly and demonstrably is doing their best for their country from their privileged position of elected representative.

Then I look closer to home and see the shambolic figure of Boris Johnson who disgraces the high office he paid such a price for.

Apropos of balance, caught a clip last week where Boris was being grilled about exact spending on a specific hospital. A lot of waffle, then a rather embarrassing reading from a list.

So far so normal.

However towards the end - and it's a shame they cut it where they did - I actually saw something that amazed me. Boris turned to the side and demanded the figures from his team. Which, of course, is exactly what a leader should be able and prepared to do in such situations. If he had done it when the question was first asked, rather than fifth asked, I would have been impressed. Because I don't expect Boris - or any senior minister - to be a walking fount of miscellaneous figures. (In fact if they were, I would be rather worried). However I do expect them to know how to surround themselves with a team that does.

But this is the way it always goes. Spin, spin, spin until you really have lost any grip on reality.

RedToothBrush · 15/10/2020 11:51

@Sostenueto

Manchester still holding out! More meetings today. My Andy Burnham putting up a fight! Good for him! He's fighting for more financial help and he believes tier 3 not good enough to make a difference. Go north go!
Hmmm this isn't necessarily a good thing.

Its hard to argue we shouldn't move large parts of the NW into t3 immediately given hospital admissions.

Whilst i get the financial argument its also cutting your nose off to spite your face to a degree.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 15/10/2020 12:28

From across the Channel. "The 27 and the UK" seems to be a thing now. Not quite sure how Chromes translate is fairing up, but you get the gist ...

www.msn.com/fr-fr/actualite/monde/conseil-europ%c3%a9en-et-brexit-%c3%a7a-ne-finira-jamais/ar-BB1a2vNc

Conseil européen et Brexit, ça ne finira jamais

The Twenty-Seven and the United Kingdom are meeting this Thursday and Friday in Brussels to find a trade agreement before the effective exit from London. Negotiations have been totally blocked since the vote in the House of Commons revising the agreement signed last year. A further delay seems very likely.The never-ending story of Brexit is once again coming to the European Council of Heads of State and Government on Thursday and Friday. Because the negotiation of a trade agreement with the United Kingdom is totally blocked. The Twenty-Seven who have something else in mind between the coronavirus pandemic, the puzzle of their 750 billion euro stimulus fund blocked by Poland and Hungary - the two countries do not want the funds to be disbursed is conditional on respect for the rule of law - and the demands of the European Parliament, which requires an increase in the European budget, will therefore once again have to devote time to the English patient.

The good news is that the Twenty-Seven, despite the efforts of British Prime Minister Boris Johnson, remain united: it is out of the question to grant the UK preferential access to the single market if it persists in refusing. to respect European rules on competition and standards. Europeans believe there are still a few weeks to reach a deal even though BoJo had set Oct. 15 as the deadline for a deal. "But it was he alone who announced it", laughs a European negotiator. In any case, "it is not the Union which will pull the plug: we will repeat our minimum requirements", explains an ambassador. Clearly, it will be up to London to assume the failure. In the meantime, Europeans are going to prepare for the worst, just in case.

Are we moving towards an agreement?

"The negotiations are not progressing at all even if the British explain that there is an emergency," regrets a European ambassador. "They say that they hope to enter soon into a" tunnel ", that is to say a negotiation at the end, during which one would exchange concessions, - more fish against less sanitary standards -, continues a European negotiator. But that's not how it works, there won't be a big final bargaining, because that's not how this negotiation works. ” In fact, we must go back to the starting point to understand what is at stake: the Union has offered the United Kingdom, which will remain geographically, it is obvious, and economically close to it, an unprecedented trade agreement says “Zero customs duties, zero quotas”, that is to say broad access to the internal market. But in return, she wants the conditions of competition ( level-playing field ) to be the same on both sides of the Channel, in other words that London undertakes to respect the Union's rules on aid. State to companies and applies its environmental, health, social standards, etc. However, for the Brexitist ideologues, it is quite simply impossible: "They tell us that the United Kingdom has recovered its" sovereignty "and that it must be able to decide what it wants", explains a European diplomat.

For fishing, another explosive subject, it is exactly the same thing: London considers itself sovereign and therefore does not want to make any commitments. "In reality, we are not in a rational negotiation", regrets a European ambassador. "We are facing an emotional virulence against the Union," continues a Eurocrat. While the British accept constraints when negotiating with third countries, which is the basis of international law, they refuse them as soon as they speak to us! ”

Alors, accord ou pas accord ? «Rationnellement, Boris Johnson en a besoin : il est contesté en interne, il a mal géré la crise du coronavirus, il est confronté à une crise économique majeure, Donald Trump qui le soutient, et encore, risque de perdre les élections, il n’a donc aucun intérêt à ajouter la crise à la crise», analyse-t-on à Bruxelles. «Mais franchement, je ne parierai pas un euro sur la rationalité de Johnson», soupire un eurocrate.

Qu’est-ce qui coince ?
Il y a bien sûr la question du level-playing field, mais aussi celle de la gouvernance de l’accord en cas de viol des engagements ou de désaccords sur son application. S’il y a eu des avancées techniques, là aussi, le récent projet de loi sur le marché intérieur britannique qui autorise le Royaume-Uni à violer la partie de l’accord de retrait conclu avec l’Union concernant l’Irlande du Nord a tout bloqué : comment faire confiance à un futur partenaire commercial, s’il menace, avant même de signer un accord, de rompre ses engagements ? «Ils ont sans doute voulu nous impressionner, analyse un négociateur européen. Mais l’effet a été inverse : on se méfie encore plus d’eux et on a mis davantage l’accent sur la gouvernance pour exiger le maximum de garanties.» Et le Parlement européen a prévenu : pour ratifier un accord, il exigera que cette loi britannique soit abrogée. Un nouvel élément dans l’équation…

Autre point qui coince, la pêche. Le Royaume-Uni souhaite reprendre le contrôle de ses eaux très poissonneuses et négocier tous les ans un accès limité des chalutiers européens. L’Union, elle, souhaite conserver un large accès tel qu’il existe aujourd’hui. C’est une question très délicate pour les Etats côtiers, la Belgique, les Pays-Bas, l’Irlande, le Danemark et la France évidemment, qui est particulièrement intraitable sur le sujet. La question n’est pas qu’économique, pour le Royaume-Uni, le secteur de la pêche ne représentant que 0,1% de son PIB. Elle est avant tout politique : s’y mêlent la question de la souveraineté retrouvée, mais aussi le souci de soutenir de petites industries, réservoirs de voix pour les élections. Sur le sujet, l’Union comme le Royaume-Uni disposent chacun d’un fort levier. Si les eaux britanniques sont très poissonneuses, plus des deux tiers des poissons pêchés par les chalutiers britanniques (plus de 70%) sont revendus en Europe. Les Britanniques mangent moins de poissons, et moins de variétés de poissons, que les Européens : «Qu’ils le vendent au Pérou, on verra s’ils y parviennent», se marre un diplomate européen. En outre, les Britanniques pêchent aussi dans les eaux européennes. Les deux côtés auraient donc en principe tout intérêt à trouver une solution. En principe.

Qu’en est-il de l’Irlande du Nord ?
Le traité international de retrait de l’Union, conclu le 17 octobre 2019 est accompagné d’un Protocole nord-irlandais, supposé résoudre la question épineuse de la frontière entre l’Irlande du Nord et la République d’Irlande. Cette ligne invisible de 499 kilomètres est la seule frontière terrestre entre l’Union et le pays tiers que devient le Royaume-Uni. L’idée est d’éviter l’instauration d’une frontière «en dur», inconcevable politiquement pour des raisons historiques (les catholiques nord-irlandais, bientôt majoritaires, souhaitent leur rattachement à la mère patrie et ce désir a entraîné une guerre civile de trente ans – les Troubles – dont la fin a été signée par un traité de paix en 1997). L’accord prévoyait que l’Irlande du Nord reste, de facto, à l’intérieur du marché intérieur européen, et que les contrôles sanitaires, sur la conformité ou le paiement de la TVA, soient réalisés entre la Grande-Bretagne et l’Irlande du Nord, soit dans les ports d’entrée d’Irlande du Nord soit à bord des bateaux sur la mer d’Irlande. Mais avec sa loi sur le marché intérieur britannique, Boris Johnson s’est ménagé le droit de ne plus respecter le droit européen sur les aides d’Etat et de suspendre les contrôles en mer d’Irlande : «Ça nous contraindrait à imposer des droits de douane aux produits nord-irlandais entrant en République d’Irlande», explique un eurocrate, autrement dit à rétablir une frontière… C’est pour cette raison aussi que le retrait de cette loi britannique est désormais un préalable à tout accord.

Que se passera-t-il le 31 décembre 2020 ?
«Le risque d’un no deal sur l’accord commercial n’a absolument pas la même importance qu’un no deal sur le Brexit», explique un diplomate européen. «Avec l’accord de retrait, on a organisé une sortie ordonnée du Royaume-Uni qui a débuté le 31 janvier avec son départ des institutions. Et quoi qu’il arrive, il sortira du marché intérieur le 31 décembre à minuit.» C’est à ce moment-là que 80% du choc aura lieu et un accord sur un traité de libre-échange n’y changera strictement rien : à la fin de l’année, on va jeter une poignée de sable dans un moteur jusque-là parfaitement huilé, ce qui va ralentir les échanges. En clair, les douanes vont se mettre en place de part et d’autre de la Manche, les marchandises vont être contrôlées, notamment les produits agroalimentaires qui devront répondre aux normes phytosanitaires européennes, il n’y aura plus de reconnaissance mutuelle automatique, des tonnes de papiers devront être remplies, la TVA du pays de destination devra être payée à la frontière… Il faut imaginer les scènes de chaos que cela va entraîner, les Britanniques exportant essentiellement vers l’Union et étant largement dépendants d’elle pour leurs importations.

If there's no trade deal, it's just going to make trading a little more difficult. Clearly, the Europeans and the British will, in addition to the customs controls that will be put in place no matter what, apply customs duties and quantitative quotas exactly as they do with countries with which they have not concluded an agreement. free trade Agreement. But the shock will be terrible for the United Kingdom, since it is much more economically integrated into the Union than Australia or Canada.ALSO ON MSN - United Kingdom: the future of the automobile remains suspended on Brexit

colouringindoors · 15/10/2020 12:38

how likely do people think an extension is?

OchonAgusOchonO · 15/10/2020 12:42

@colouringindoors

how likely do people think an extension is?
Isn't there legislation that forbids an extension? That would need to be repealed first. I don't know how quickly that can happen.
Peregrina · 15/10/2020 13:03

Legislation can be rushed through, (although it's not usually good legislation) so an appeal could be rushed through. I would imagine though that this would be one where the Tory Brexiters actually did rebel - not like on things like food standards where they made a lot of noise and then meekly trouped through the Government lobby.

Peregrina · 15/10/2020 13:03

repeal, not appeal..

BigChocFrenzy · 15/10/2020 13:21

@colouringindoors

how likely do people think an extension is?
... It would need to have the consent of all EU heads of govt, so they would need to see a benefit of letting things drag on
  • in practical terms, any of them genuinely objecting would stop an extension

It would heed the HoC to repeal a previous law preventing any extension
Some Tory Brexiters would vote against, number unknown
Depends on how many in the ERG do so - 40 would overturn BJ's majority, in which case he would need Opposition help / acquiesence

BigChocFrenzy · 15/10/2020 13:24

The fatal trio that could finish the Union

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-fatal-trio-that-could-finish-the-union

The most important speech at the recent Tory conference was given by Douglas Ross, the new leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party.

He noted - as many others have on many other occasions - that the case for independence is now being more strongly made in London than in Edinburgh.

Whatever Scotland’s own problems and shortcomings - and these are many and significan -
the United Kingdom is becoming a leading example of what not* to do.*

Independence would be expensive and much else besides,
but the new state would not have to be very good to be a little bit better than the one it left behind.

Such are the wages of mismanagement.

DGRossetti · 15/10/2020 13:25

Isn't there legislation that forbids an extension?

How does that affect a government that has already stated it doesn't consider itself bound by law ?

BigChocFrenzy · 15/10/2020 13:26

This holds for several issues atm:

"Repetition of these comforting bromides, however, has done nothing to diminish the suspicion that that is all they are.

Platitudes mouthed by a government just smart enough to know it has to be seen to do something
but stupid enough to think a performative demonstration of Union-thinking is a happy substitute for actually living up to the promises the government has made itself."

BigChocFrenzy · 15/10/2020 13:28

@DGRossetti

Isn't there legislation that forbids an extension?

How does that affect a government that has already stated it doesn't consider itself bound by law ?

... Any law passed by Parliament can be repealed by Parliament

The problem only arises when they they try to pass or repeal against international law / treaty

The government can pass & repeal domestic law until it churns itself into butter

OchonAgusOchonO · 15/10/2020 13:37

@DGRossetti

Isn't there legislation that forbids an extension?

How does that affect a government that has already stated it doesn't consider itself bound by law ?

I assume there is a minimum length of time it would take to repeal the law. So depending on how close to the wire BJ goes, it may not get repealed in time. Also, if he has objections in his own government, it may not get repealed. Him then asking for an extension would presumably lose him his majority.

I suspect if he asked for an extension without first repealing that law, the EU might be a bit reluctant to agree to it as it could potentially be an even bigger mess than the current one

DGRossetti · 15/10/2020 13:38

Also, from the tone of that MSN article, I can't see there being a great appetite for an extension from the EU. As noted they really are sick of Brexit, sick of the UK, and sick of being distracted from the real problems they all face as a single entity. At some point - if it hasn't happened already, Macron or Merkel will find themselves against an interviewer who just asks "Why have you wasted so much time on Brexit when your country needs you ?". And I can't see them wanting to be in that position.

DGRossetti · 15/10/2020 13:47

I suspect if he asked for an extension without first repealing that law, the EU might be a bit reluctant to agree to it as it could potentially be an even bigger mess than the current one

Also, what would any extension be for ? If it's just to get a few weeks to allow time for an agreed deal to be implemented, it might just pass muster. That's dependent on whether the IMB Great Escape has left the EU with any reason to trust the UK. Or (much more critically) whether the EU heads of state are willing to justify their decision to their own electorates.

If it's just another chance for the UK to play games, prevaricate, piss around, and generally spit in the EUs face, then it's going to be a no.

The bottom line is that it's not the EUs fault the UK is where the UK is. And maybe someone needs to stand up and make the point loud and clear.

ListeningQuietly · 15/10/2020 13:52

The EU have no reason or incentive to bale the UK out yet again.
It is not in their interests.
It would make them look weak to their more authoritarian members.

The UK walked away from the house
its just about to drop the Golf keys down the drain
for those of an age who remember that advert

prettybird · 15/10/2020 13:54

I remember it Grin

OchonAgusOchonO · 15/10/2020 13:55

The budget announced in Ireland this week is assuming no deal. Preparations for no deal have been accelerated over the last few months. I think most people here would be very surprised if they is any sort of deal worth talking about.

I need to replenish my brexit box as I do buy some products that come from the UK. I'm also actively looking for EU-based alternatives.

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