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Brexit

Westminstenders: Pah International Law. Who needs it?

978 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2020 18:09

I mean its not as if trade deals and human rights are relevant is it?

(sorry eating my dinner so must be brief)

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Menomadness · 15/09/2020 10:59

Red I thought the same that there seems little mention locally. ( although I don't live in that area now so am not up to date) but the local paper and local Facebook pages that I have seen haven't said much but I think the WG ore one publication the council were asking people not to visit other houses. Not sure how official the guidance is. Do you have any further information? What's the testing facilities like? I think at the beginning there was a testing site at the hospital but don't know if it's still there. Given its proximity to Manchester/ Liverpool and the weekend trips to North Wales, Blackpool coast that many go on and the commuting to Manchester to Liverpool to work I think the whole area could be on the verge of something much bigger!
Sorry for massive derail of this thread with yet more misery!!

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 15/09/2020 11:04

Ghost totally agree. Pity more people hadn't thought of that before the ref in 2016.

Mistigri · 15/09/2020 11:14

Some wonderful Ed content on twitter today. I'm in a meeting so can't listen to his Sky interview, but i don't really need sound to appreciate Ed Grin

DGRossetti · 15/09/2020 11:37

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2020/09/14/shock-and-outrage-as-parliament-votes-to-put-government-abov

No-one expected it to be defeated. But to see the internal market bill pass its first parliamentary hurdle was still a sobering moment. The governing party of the UK was voting to give itself the power to break the law. Something fundamental in British constitutional life was disintegrating. One of the most basic of all the political principles that held the country together was coming unstuck.

There's a good chance that, even if the bill eventually passes, the powers within it will never be used. It's quite possible that these proposals are some kind of deranged and counterproductive negotiating strategy. Or - more likely - they are intended for a domestic audience, to beef up the sense of conflict ahead of concessions with the EU, so it is easier for No.10 to later present a deal it as a negotiating victory.

But even if that's the case, parliament did something alarming today. It gave its initial consent to handing the government powers to operate outside of the law. Britain began the process of foregoing its status as a civilised power which operates on liberal principles.

The powers in the bill are very extensive. The legislation does not, as the government has insisted, give ministers the power to break the law in "specific and limited" circumstances. They are much more expansive than that. In the area of the Northern Ireland Protocol, the bill allows ministers to pass provisions which have effect "notwithstanding any relevant international law". It states that these actions cannot be regarded as unlawful on the grounds of incompatibility with international or domestic law. These are general powers, not specific ones.

They will not require any consent from parliament either, once this bill is passed. For the first six months of the legislation taking effect, they will operate according to the 'made affirmative' mechanism for statutory instruments. That means that ministers don't have to check with MPs or peers. They can just do it. Parliament then has 40 days to annul them. But even if they do, the government can just put the regulation down again.

There is, in essence, nothing to stop the government doing whatever it wants - without parliamentary support, and without any respect for domestic or international law. It is, simply put, the largest expansion of executive power we've seen in our lifetime.

In order to defend these proposals, Boris Johnson went to the Commons and issued a series of lies. He insisted that the deal which he himself had promoted as wonderful was in fact terrible and full of "ambiguities". He said the EU was no longer acting in good faith, when in fact it was his own behaviour which manifestly fell within that category.

Finally, he told the Commons, in the most chest-thumping Churchillian tones he could muster, that the EU was threatening a food blockade which would present the UK from sending goods to Northern Ireland. In fact, the protocol has mechanisms to prevent that sort of occurrence, and anyway, this bill has no clause to stop it if it did.

"If the prime minister wants to tell us there's another part of this bill I haven't noticed that will deal with this supposed threat of the blockade - he can," Labour's Ed Miliband, in a coruscating speech, said. "I'll give way. He can tell us. I'm sure he's read it. I'm sure he knows it in detail, because he's a details man. What clause protects the threat he says he's worried about?" Johnson refuses to answer.

There was no way in which any fair minded observer could accept the government's argument, but of course the majority of Tory party rose, like some kind of half-functioning battery-operated toy, to parrot the lines the prime minister had given them. Europe was not acting in good faith. The bill was necessary to protect the Good Friday Agreement. A food blockade was a clear and present danger.

Only a few respectable voices on the Tory benches held firm. "Some level of bureaucracy was, and is now, the foreseeable and obvious consequence of the withdrawal agreement we signed," Stephen Hammond told his fellow party MPs. "That point was highlighted at the time, but it was justified as a way we would move onto the next phase."

It is an indication of how catastrophically the standard of politics have fallen that this was to be considered in any way notable. All Hammond was doing was reminding parliamentarians of the things they themselves had said just months ago. And yet, at this stage, it was the height of bravery. To retain memory, to be consistent on the things one has said, was to rebel against the day-to-day functioning of the government and the central principles on which it operates.

But in truth, even the rebellion was weak. In most cases, rebel MPs seemed to be drawn towards Bob Neill's amendment, which will be debated and voted on next week. This does not reject the powers which the government was giving itself. It simply requires another parliamentary vote before they could come into force. On the level of principle, it is insufficient. On the level of political reality, it is hopeless. It does not take a stand for the principle of international law. And by authorising the powers in principle, it makes any future vote on activating them a near-certainty.

The only real surprise was why the government didn't just go ahead and accept the amendment. After all, it imposed almost no restriction on its actions and was notable only really as evidence for how obedient and morally broken the Conservative party has become. It's likely that next week the government will accept the amendment. And that in and of itself indicates how ineffectual it is.

You can judge the severity of your circumstances by the propositions which are expressed and the resistance to them. In both cases, this was a dispiriting spectacle. The government proposition was appalling - as irresponsible as any passed in our lifetime, sold on a pack of lies. But the resistance was just as depressing: a half-hearted shrug of reluctance rather than the all-out opposition demanded by the moment.

If any good comes of what is happening here, it is that some of those observing it will recognise the lengths to which this government will sink and the absolute moral imperative of removing it from power. But that is really the only bit of hope one can salvage from what we saw today.

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2020 11:40

@Menomadness

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4024132-Warrington-Unofficial-Lockdown-Request?watched=1
Separate thread on Warrington's local request for a local down and the problems Warrington's case highlights.

OP posts:
TokyoSushi · 15/09/2020 11:44

[quote RedToothBrush]@Menomadness

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4024132-Warrington-Unofficial-Lockdown-Request?watched=1
Separate thread on Warrington's local request for a local down and the problems Warrington's case highlights.[/quote]
Thanks Red, let's just say that this is something that I am extremely interested in if you know what I mean!

Menomadness · 15/09/2020 11:56

Thanks for the link red I will head over there.

Tanith · 15/09/2020 12:00

"There's a good chance that, even if the bill eventually passes, the powers within it will never be used. It's quite possible that these proposals are some kind of deranged and counterproductive negotiating strategy. Or - more likely - they are intended for a domestic audience, to beef up the sense of conflict ahead of concessions with the EU, so it is easier for No.10 to later present a deal it as a negotiating victory."

I think they can stop at "intended for a domestic audience", actually. It is intended for a domestic audience - to be used against them.
I'm in no doubt, either, that this Government won't hesitate to use the powers it grants itself. It has already branded school children "terrorists".

And what of Governments coming after it? What laws will they cheerfully break because they can?

DGRossetti · 15/09/2020 12:05

And what of Governments coming after it? What laws will they cheerfully break because they can?

With these powers, why would you ever want another government ?

There's no longer any point in any government that isn't going to deliver "project Brexit" is there ? You now can't have any other government than a Tory one, since only the Tories are going to deliver Brexit.

The 2016 referendum is going to drive UK politics for 3 or four generations now.

GaspodeWonderCat · 15/09/2020 12:33

I wrote to my Tory MP expressing my disgust at his vote to break the law. He will ignore it as he has ignored other letters he does not like. Thanks to RTB and others for this beacon of sanity.

Tanith · 15/09/2020 12:40

"With these powers, why would you ever want another government ?"

It doesn't matter what any of us wants. It's fairly obvious there will be another Government in the next year when Johnson and Cummings are finished.

It'll be Conservative in name only.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 15/09/2020 12:49

Excellent article, DGR, if depressing.

The UK is fucked.
Maybe they will vote to do away with general elections next.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 15/09/2020 12:55

Or maybe they'll outlaw political parties which don't support Brexit.

What is now no longer conceivable/possible?

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2020 13:01

Former MP Elphicke has got 2 years for sexual assault.

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tantamountto · 15/09/2020 13:04

I think the SNP will come to regret not voting against this. They're certainly lost any respect from me.

Darker · 15/09/2020 13:05

It certainly feels like the genie is well and truly out of the bottle. Any conservative government that tries to pull back now risks votes going to the Brexit Party or a new iteration of the far right.

ListeningQuietly · 15/09/2020 13:33

I have a F2F team meeting booked for tomorrow.
I am suggesting that folks bring polo mallets, fishing rods and shotguns
so that we are definitely Exempt from the Rule of Six Grin

TheElementsOfMedical · 15/09/2020 13:38

Colour me unsurprised that although Dear Boris The Shagger was elected with all urgency in order to "Get Brexit Done" in January, the Brexists just found all that juicy Willy Of The People perma-overwhelming-moral-authority-plus-victimghood-from-bullying-elites just too delicious to let go of. And thus it turns out that their fervent hearts' desire of Brexit Was Done in January wasn't Brexity enough, and there must be more and longer and further and harder Brexit to carry on properly fulfilling The Willy.

The Willy, it turns out, is the Willy of a permanent sex addict needing ever increasing and extreme stimulation.

squid4 · 15/09/2020 13:43

@BigChocFrenzy

This study into anxiety ended BEFORE the Covid crisis began Stressed people make poor choices and are desperate for a unicorn to solve their problems

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/14/uk-has-experienced-explosion-in-anxiety-since-2008-study-finds

There has been an “explosion” in anxiety in Britain over the past decade, research has shown, with the financial crash, austerity, Brexit, climate change and social media blamed for massive rises in the condition.

Hi. I am sick and angry all the time. That article made me angry, young people are skyhigh anxious and over-55s are not. What a shit country to be young in. Sold down the river by our parents and grandparents, who, amazingly, have no increased anxiety about any of this! (I don't mean individuals obviously. No pensioners around here vote bloody tory.) Openly breaking the law and crowing about it seems a new low. Seems a new low every day at the moment. They're throwing red meat to racists currently so it's obvious why they're holding onto the UKIPvoters - but I don't understand why so-called "moderate" or "centre/right" or "soft" Tories are supporting this? According to polling they still seem to be.
DGRossetti · 15/09/2020 13:48

@RedToothBrush

Former MP Elphicke has got 2 years for sexual assault.
Let's see if my suggesting he was Boris BFF brings a flying monkey back.
DGRossetti · 15/09/2020 13:49

@ICouldHaveCheckedFirst

Or maybe they'll outlaw political parties which don't support Brexit.

What is now no longer conceivable/possible?

Why would you need a political party that doesn't support Brexit ?
BigChocFrenzy · 15/09/2020 13:51

" No pensioners around here vote bloody tory."

< clears throat for confession >
I vote for the CDU in Germany, which is moderate right of centre

  • but in the UK it would be centrist pro-European,
rather like a sane & very competent, socially conservative British liberal party with a strong social conscience would look like, it it were ever possible
DGRossetti · 15/09/2020 13:51

www.scottishlegal.com/article/pressure-grows-on-lord-keen-to-refuse-consent-to-internal-market-bill-or-resign

Pressure grows on Lord Keen to refuse consent to Internal Market Bill or resign

Pressure is growing in the Advocate General for Scotland, Lord Keen of Elie QC, to refuse to give his consent to the proposed UK Internal Market Bill.

The bill allows ministers to “disapply” rules agreed over the goods that cross between Britain and Northern Ireland. Section 45(1) of the bill states that certain provisions

“have effect notwithstanding any relevant international or domestic law with which they may be incompatible or inconsistent”.

Lord Keen has previously said that “it is essential that the law officers are champions of the rule of law within government”.

It comes as a series of Conservative grandees have piled pressure on the UK government over the bill.

Conservative MP Sir Roger Gale called on Justice Secretary Robert Buckland to resign over the proposals, while former Conservative MEP Struan Stevenson warned Boris Johnson against what he called “gunboat diplomacy.”

Meanwhile, Conservative former Solicitor General Lord Garnier said: “The job of the law officers amongst many other things is to maintain the rule of law in government – to make sure that ministers behave by it.

And if they insist in not doing so then one’s advice would conflict with the client’s instructions and you would have to go…I think the law officers need to ask themselves some very deep questions.”

Joanna Cherry QC MP, the SNPs justice spokesperson, said: “The Advocate General is on record as saying it is ‘essential’ for law officers to ‘champion the rule of law within government’.

“If he is to live up to those words then he cannot in all conscience support or sign off on this legislation – which the ministers he advises have already admitted breaks international law.

“In the unprecedented circumstances of this case – with UK government ministers admitting their intention to act unlawfully – it is incumbent on the Advocate General to uphold the rule of law and

refuse to give his consent to it. He has a duty to protect the integrity of Scots law and the Scottish legal profession, and if he refuses to do so, he should resign.

“A former Tory Solicitor General has made clear that in these extraordinary circumstances, law officers ‘need to ask themselves some very deep questions’ and be prepared to resign on principle.

“It is time for the Advocate General to live up to the principles he has previously championed – quite simply he must refuse to sign off on this Bill or he will be as culpable as the Tory ministers who are self-professed law-breakers.”

Writing in the Sunday Times, former prime ministers Sir John Major and Tony Blair said the government’s actions were “irresponsible, wrong in principle and dangerous in practice”.

“It raises questions that go far beyond the impact on Ireland, the peace process and negotiations for a trade deal - crucial though they are. It questions the very integrity of our nation,” they said.

The former leaders, both vehement opponents of Brexit, said that respecting treaty obligations was “just as important” as domestic law, and called for MPs to reject the legislation.

“As the world looks on aghast at the UK - the word of which was once accepted as inviolable - this government’s action is shaming itself and embarrassing our nation,” they added.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/09/2020 13:52

@RedToothBrush

Former MP Elphicke has got 2 years for sexual assault.
.... Fair enough, justice has been done, as far as it can be in such cases
DGRossetti · 15/09/2020 13:57

Fair enough, justice has been done, as far as it can be in such cases

If any other MNetters know about this, I suspect they'd disagree ... the general view seems to be condemned for life.