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Brexit

Westminstenders: Operation Shock and Awe

987 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/07/2020 10:32

The government is launching its get ready for the end of transition campaign which has been dubbed a 'shock and awe' campaign.

In this campaign we will learn all about what Brexit means and what amazing opportunities lie for having increased customs and borders, beaucracy and increased costs. Bet you are all really excited and looking forward to this.

We will also get a 'Farage Garage' in Kent to cope with these wonderful opportunities in traffic jams. This will be something that businesses throughout the country will be super excited to plan for in their socially distanced Zoom meetings or across warehouses with their face masks on. And banks will be delighted to see an uptick in applications in CCJs and debt reconstruction plans.

It will be a super fun time for the under 30s who have zero hours contracts, worked in retail or hospitality. Or should I say 'worked'.

Meanwhile the right to a jury trial has been binned due to 'long covid delays' which are shorter than they were several years ago. The NHS isn't getting the funding it expected, and waiting lists are longer than ever with no way to clear them. The plan to build more hospitals seems to have disappeared with the Nightingales. Many councils are about to go into insolvency and be taken over by accountancy firms. The civil service is being dismantled and conservative loyalists with no experience being put in charge of important functions of state. Communications with the press are being 'streamlined' to make them incredible of holding power to account and only able to repeat government public announcements.

Anyone looking forward to Christmas? When you write a letter to Santa remember to add 'visa application form', 'a sleeping bag for use at Dover', 'tinned tomatoes' and 'packets of seeds to grow your own' to the list.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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QueenOfThorns · 19/07/2020 13:47

This might help: immunology.sciencemag.org/content/5/49/eabd6160

Paragraff · 19/07/2020 13:53

For what it's worth, in China it's commonly believed that if you've had it once you're at higher risk of getting it again. To the extent that those who've had it are being turned down for jobs and tenancies.

JeSuisPoulet · 19/07/2020 14:08

No one is debating the importance of T cell studies but the summary explains why we cannot just say "T cells show immunity" as a comfort, particularly when there are real long term effects on many patients who have had it:
"...Are T cells protective and if so which are the key antigens and and cytokine effector programs to focus on? Are all T cell responses beneficial, or are some contributory to immunopathology and to be avoided? If it is indeed the case that antibodies are transient and T cell memory is more durable (though, how durable?), what can we learn about anomalies of T follicular helper-B cell interactions in germinal centers? In the short to medium term, we need to ensure that all of this T cell toolkit and knowledge is brought to bear on robust, comparative evaluation of the different vaccine platforms, their immunogenicity, efficacy and safety. Entering the next part of the battle, there are many thousands of people suffering the chronic aftermath of infection posed by chronic, so-called ‘long-COVID’ cases, characterized by diverse symptoms including fatigue, joint pain and dyspnea (19)."

DGRossetti · 19/07/2020 14:11

Because evidence is mounting up that longer-term immunity to Covid is down to a T-cell response, not B-cells (i.e. antibodies). It’s common even for people who had confirmed Covid to not test positive for antibodies, it definitely doesn’t mean you’re not immune.

The flip side being that a lot of people may have been immune from the off that we weren't aware of. Even at the height of the black death (for example) there were people that simply never got it.

Presumably there's a genetic component to T-Cell immunity ?

[killer] t-cells are the culprits in a lot of autoimmune conditions - including MS. The interferon classes of disease modifying drugs worked by dampening the t-cell response and (hopefully) retarding the progress of the disease.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2020 14:14

I stress there is no evidence this will the case, unless / until we see people being reinfected after say 6 months and can observe how ill they become .....
but there are a few viruses which cause more severe illness with each successive infection, e.g. Dengue Fever

so when public health is planning its response for "reasonable worst case" I wonder whether they included that ?

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2020 14:16

There is at least some innate immunity for all viruses afaik

e.g. even for HIV, up to 10% of the population may have full or partial natural immunity

MashedPotatoBrainz · 19/07/2020 14:20

Gove does bring a shudder,
but he is one of the v few in Cabinet with some competence
7

He said earlier today that you have more chance of being killed while cycling than from covid. Covid deaths for the last 6 months 45,000. Cycling deaths per average 6 months is 50. He does even understand that 45,000 is a bigger number than 50. We're doomed.

DGRossetti · 19/07/2020 14:23

@Paragraff

For what it's worth, in China it's commonly believed that if you've had it once you're at higher risk of getting it again. To the extent that those who've had it are being turned down for jobs and tenancies.
and, of course, health insurance.

The consequences of BUPA and buddies turning around and saying "Had Covid 19 ? Need health insurance ? Then fuck off" haven't even begun to be appreciated yet in the rush to grab that pint on the way to the airport.

Bearing in mind that any conditions arising from an excluded condition are also excluded it's amazing how many things are suddenly down to excluded conditions.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2020 14:40

FT: Reality punctures Britain’s Brexit balloon

https://www.ft.com/content/29276560-c74f-11ea-9d81-eb7f2a294e50

businesses will not escape the need for checks on product standards and rules of origin requirements.

This does not begin to cover other crucial deals still required around areas such as data services and finance
....
Costly border plans undermine the economic case for leaving the EU.....

Britain is about to discover the hard way that while Leavers were sincere in many of their political beliefs about Brexit,
their economic arguments were, and are still, a costly and damaging sham

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2020 14:45

"He does even understand that 45,000 is a bigger number than 50"

Of course he understands
He's just lying

This is where he differs from several other Cabinet members and Brexiters:

A liar may choose to act intelligently - if it is not against his interests - in a sufficiently major emergency;
a fool does not have that option

Unfortunately, none of the likely stand-ins or replacements for BJ before the next GE possess both brains & ethics

DGRossetti · 19/07/2020 15:36

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/07/19/from-furlough-to-meltdown-is-a-matter-of-months/

From furlough to meltdown is a matter of months

Posted on July 19 2020

I was in discussion with old friends yesterday on what might happen over coming months and even years. Like me, they’re deeply troubled by the current lack of any clarity, vision or leadership from the government. This blog summarises my thinking. It was to be a Twitter thread but got too long for that. That has, however, dictated the style.

We agreed that the government had been hoping for two things. The first was a short, and rather sharp, hit from coronavirus after which there would be herd immunity. They had the same hope for the economy: a short hit and then full recovery. Neither is going to happen.

Whether we get a second coronavirus wave is unknown, but that there’s a risk of it is a fact, so we have to stay in semi-lockdown. And Covid 19 is endemic now: even a vaccine is unlikely to erase it. So everything will be different. There’s a long term socio/medical impact of this.

On the economy, the bad news has hardly begun. The government is now passing the buck to businesses. Vast numbers of them remain vulnerable. Few can now operate at the scale they did. But high overheads remain and many tax bills are only deferred. Failure rates will be high.

With high failure rates, and even the fear of it, will come substantial redundancies. I think we’re already at 2 million plus unemployed. Add one in three of those furloughed or on self-employed support and there could very easily be six million unemployed.

Sudden unemployment at anything like this scale will become a crisis in months, at most. The middle classes are about to learn about the Tory approach to benefits and the reality of universal credit.

People will really face a crisis when they can’t feed their children. Some already can’t in the UK, but this is going to become widespread. And other bills - from the mortgage to the credit card and then the utilities will all go unpaid. From furlough to financial meltdown is a matter of months.

The government has already said it is not interested in helping. It will not swap debt for equity in small businesses, it says, condemning many to businesses to extinction, and it claims that furlough is bad for people’s morale. How unemployment without hope is better is anyone’s guess.

The critical point is that unless there is a very rapid change of attitude - which requires a complete change in the Tory (and widespread) fear of government debt - then intervention to prevent this disaster will not happen in time. And once the jobs have gone, that’s it.

Other consequences follow quickly. A massive increase in child poverty is my big concern - and is unavoidable right now. General physical and mental ill health will follow. But the spiralling impact also worries me. Unpaid debts are going to cause a major banking and then housing crisis in 2021.

Unpaid rents are going to lead to many evictions of tenants as unemployment rises. Landlords hate those on benefits. And mortgage failures are going to lead to more evictions as a result of repossessions and then to forced housing sales. That will result in property price falls.

Property price falls lead to banking crises in the UK (although by no means everywhere else). The UK banking sector is really just a property financing scheme, wholly dependent on rising prices to ensure its own survival. I’m not convinced banks have anything like the capital required to get through 2021.

And at that point meltdown at a level we still can’t imagine is possible. Effectively, the ability of the finance system to pay will disappear without intervention.

On top of all this there is Brexit. I needn’t add any more on that issue, except to note that its timing could literally not be worse.

I don’t see these outcomes as possibilities right now. I see them as likelihoods. In fact, without intervention from the government I see them as near certainties.

This government is banking on us being ‘back to normal by Christmas’ when even the Office for Budget Responsibility says there will be 3.5 million unemployed then. I think this wildly optimistic, but that would by itself be enough to trigger much of what I am suggesting.

So what can be done? There have to be alternatives, and there still are.

The first essential is to accept the reality that millions of jobs are at risk. The government has got nowhere near close to accepting this as yet.

The second essential is to accept business can do nothing to prevent this risk by itself. There is no possibility of a market based solution to the coming problem of mass unemployment. This requires a change to forty years of thinking that markets hold the solutions to all problems government face.

The third essential is to make job preservation a priority. So, loans to business have to be turned into capital, with serious conditions on future corporate behaviour, tax payment, accounts disclosure, pay policy and governance attached. There must be a price for support.

The fourth essential is support for business overhead cost reduction. Statute imposed rent reductions should be required. 20% is the minimum. For some types of business / property it may need to be more. Landlords have to take the next big hit in this crisis.

Fifth, bank loan repayment holidays must be granted for up to two years, with loans being automatically extended thereafter and with interest rolled up, but with a ceiling on the rate due. There must be no penalties for this.

Sixth, unpaid taxes must become further equity loans for businesses unable to pay them. The price must be worker representation on the board - with statutory liability protection for those nominated. Worker directors must be the enforcers of government bailout conditions

And seventh, Brexit must be postponed: there is not a business in the country that can withstand the pressure, cost and chaos it will impose now. I am not saying it should be cancelled: I know there was a referendum. But the negotiating period has to be extended.

And what after that? Furlough has to remain for vulnerable sectors. There are many of them.

For those already made redundant UC and child benefit have to increase significantly.

Then steps have to be taken to keep people in their homes. Rent holidays must be a statutory right. Landlords must be able to claim matching mortgage payment holidays. And banks must no be able to foreclose. Shared equity arrangements must be offered instead.

Because of the risk of falling house prices negative equity traps must also be avoided: it should be made illegal for any mortgage repayment on sale to ever exceed the sale value of a property.

Bank accounting rules must be change to keep property loans on these arrangements on balance sheet.

But all this only plugs gaps. Then action to rebuild is required. And yes, of course that is the Green New Deal. That’s because there is simply no other plan. And nothing else that meets the long term needs of our society as it does.

So we need to start as soon as possible. Repair roads to make them safer for cyclists. Build safe cycle parking. Explore how to turn redundant engineering skills into bike manufacturing capacity.

Start insulation programmes, as quickly as possible. And encourage double and triple glazing where it does not exist.

Plan new, sustainable social housing. Plan local transport transformation using electric or low carbon vehicles. Put a hold on HS2 and major road building: redeploy the resources to create the local improvements that might transform communities.

Abandon Hinckley point. Build renewables instead, from roof top panels, to better wind, and finally really harnessing today power.

Create the business to support all this, including the heat pump, solar panel and wind power equipment that we need.

Invest in water. That is, improving existI got delivery systems, as well as flood defences to make sure it doesn’t go where it is not wanted. Dam the Wash to preserve large tracts of eastern England. Build tidal lagoons to deliver power.

And reform agriculture to reduce our dependence on imports and chemicals: both are entirely possible. All that is required is the pump-priming and some vision, plus cash.

And don’t presume that everything is about building. It isn’t. Invest in care as well, of all sorts. And deliver the flexible education for a new world of entirely different work that our children (and we, as lifetime learning) are going to need. Then, and only then, might we have the economy we need.

How to pay for this? A number of thoughts follow. First, imagine the cost of the alternative. It’s bigger. Paying for this is going to be cheaper than allowing economic meltdown with a decades long recovery, at best. I’m laying out the cheaper option here.

Second, there is no shortage of money in the UK: we can have as much of it as we want at the touch of a Bank of England computer keyboard. The supply of money is limitless.

Third, unless we go for disaster aversion and then employment creation now the impact of the resulting financial meltdown - which will be larger in the UK than most countries - will be much worse for the value of the pound than money creation might ever be.

Fourth, if there’s no market for debt don’t worry: Japan suggests we could do more than £2 trillion of QE right now without inflation risk arising.

Fifth, forget tax rises: facing a crisis like this they should be off the agenda for a long time. Any tax reforms should be solely about making society fairer e.g. by tackling wealth inequality, with no net increases.

Sixth, savings - and especially tax incentivised ISAs and pensions - must be put to work to support this programme. Unless they are invested in new sustainable jobs the tax reliefs must go.

Seventh, if the Bank of England objects scrap its independence. This is not the time for the City if London to be dictating terms. The reason for this fiasco has long gone.

Eighth, watch the rest of the world. Everyone will end up doing programmes like this. We’ll only be financially punished if we don’t.

And how does all this happen politically? Johnson’s power is already slipping away. The Grayling fiasco proves that.

Soon Johnson’s control of his own party will end: no MP wants to realise just how much their own career hangs by the thread of Johnson’s wholly unpredictable whim.

The Tory party has an instinct for power. But it has a problem. There is no heir apparent. And don’t say Sunak. Chancellors who deliver many millions to unemployment do not go on to take the top job.

So if they realise Johnson is beyond hope who could they choose, given Gove is also tainted by this? I cannot now see anyone who would appease the anger there will be in the country.

And anger there will be because it will be very apparent that if there is unemployment it will be by government choice. After all, the government locked down, the government furloughed, and then the government will have left people unemployed. They will be the only people to blame.

That blame will be very real, very pointed and very direct as this crisis grows. I’ll be candid and say I cannot see how mass protest can be avoided. And if it happens I could only hope that it is not violent - because I would hate to see that happen. But people living in fear have nothing left to lose.

Can a government that has chosen mass unemployment and made it worse by its own choices survive? I doubt it: whatever the electoral system I cannot see that happening, unless of course democracy is suspended. But I think that will make things worse, not better. Which doesn’t mean it won’t be tried.

In which case I sincerely hope there are others - preferably in coalition, because that is what this demands - who might be preparing to take over and deliver the government we now need.

There is no sign of that as yet. And that also worries me. There is no real sign even of deep concern at the consequences of the unemployment to come as yet anywhere much in the political spectrum. It’s all as if almost no one can believe it’s going to get this bad.

But it is. We are heading for an economic breakdown of a type we have never seen before. It’s going to be of the sort that can only, and forever, change the society we live in. And no one wants to seem to want to recognise the fact that it’s going to happen.

Politics is still playing around the edges of issues - talking about school reopening and arguing over the definitions of A Covid death when we’re heading for collapse.

And the route to that collapse is very short. It begins next month as furlough begins to wind down. The mass redundancies will begin to be announced in September when the end of furlough is imminent. And by then the corporate failures will be rising.

The road from furlough to financial failure is a very short one. We are on it. And no one is saying stop. Let alone, do a U turn.

We don’t need to fail. We will because we have a government that does not think it can stop what is going to happen. And that’s because It believes that it cannot create the money needed to tackle the massive problems that we are going to face.

The government is wrong: it can avert this crisis. It can saves millions of jobs. It can prevent child poverty. It can save the blighting of hope and health for vast numbers of people. It could direct the economy out of this crisis.

But it won’t. Because it thinks balancing its books more important than caring about people.

And the price we’re going to pay for that is going to be staggering.

I have just one hope: it is that I might be wrong. But I wouldn’t be writing this if I thought I was.

QueenOfThorns · 19/07/2020 15:42

My point was not that we’re all going to be fiiiine because T cells, more that lack of antibodies doesn’t necessarily equal lack of immunity! It’s very early days yet.

It maybe a widespread belief in China that you’re at higher risk of getting it again, but if it’s happening, it isn’t being published in medical journals. Would the Chinese authorities have a reason to suppress the information?

Interestingly, one publication that I found said that people who previously had SARS had some degree of T cell- mediated immunity to Covid.

Mistigri · 19/07/2020 15:50

The virologists I have taken to following on twitter appear to be overall rather optimistic about the potential for a vaccine and think the Oxford vaccine results are very encouraging.

The "disappearing antibody" articles in the press are similar to articles written by/about mask refuseniks ie they are strictly for the clicks.

DGRossetti · 19/07/2020 16:03

It maybe a widespread belief in China that you’re at higher risk of getting it again, but if it’s happening, it isn’t being published in medical journals. Would the Chinese authorities have a reason to suppress the information?

An equally valid question is would non-Chinese authorities have a reason to claim the Chinese authorities are suppressing the information ?

DGRossetti · 19/07/2020 16:06

The virologists I have taken to following on twitter appear to be overall rather optimistic about the potential for a vaccine and think the Oxford vaccine results are very encouraging.

Presumably in Russian Grin Mind you, would you trust a UK vaccine ?

Westminstenders: Operation Shock and Awe
Mistigri · 19/07/2020 16:12

It won't be a "U.K. vaccine". All these vaccines are being developed internationally.

Yes, of course I'd take it, if the safety profile looked acceptable - and it won't have got to phase III without an acceptable safety profile. I would probably not meet the inclusion criteria for the trial (even if they were conducting trials in Europe, which for obvious reasons they are not at the moment) - but if I had the opportunity I'd have no qualms about taking part.

prettybird · 19/07/2020 16:19

Wrote a long post and MN ate it - as the app has a tendency to do with long posts Hmm

I'll try and re-write it but post it in chunks and it's never worded as well second time round Sad

I actually think BJ is right when he says he is hoping for the best and planning for the worst

Coronavirus: Boris Johnson sets out plan for 'significant normality' by Christmas_ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53441912

But he's not doing this. He's blindly hoping for the best but planning on blaming the public / the local authorities / the schools / PHE / the experts / the opposition / the EU (perm any combination of the previous choices) - anyone other than the Government Angry

DGRossetti · 19/07/2020 16:22

It's astonishing not only how little the government is actually responsible for, but how impotent it seems to be able to rectify that. I must admit I'm starting to wonder what the point of them is.

Which makes me wonder it that's part of a plan ....

prettybird · 19/07/2020 16:29

...contrast this with the Scottish Government which has been excoriated for contingency planning, such as the plans for blended learning when the schools go back next month.

SIL works in management for a local authority's education department. They'd been working on plans for blended learning, knowing that it was a contingency in case by the end of July the virus wasn't contained enough for the schools to go back full time safely (although she does say that some LAs like Edinburgh were taking the piss with their blended learning plans only have some pupils back at school 20% of the time Hmm).

She also says it was unfair of some people to criticise John Swinney (Education Secretary) for not guaranteeing that exams would go ahead as usual next year as we don't know if/when there will be another spike Sad

JeSuisPoulet · 19/07/2020 16:30

BCF I've given up presuming PHE is going to follow any rational public health based framework, so heaven only knows what it's predicted worst case is based on. Ultimately they went with the data modelling "advice" of herd immunity rather than logic and evidence based practice of not sending elderly with COVID back to care homes with at risk populations, so I do not trust PHE to make accurate assessments of risk any more.

Sorry Queen, I feel I was being a bit picky there. I just realised last week that I wasn't that scared of catching it back in Jan-March because my risk of death was low but seeing my friend survive it and suffer so badly has made me more fearful of surviving it than anything else (possibly other than dementia) I can think of. Thinking of the hundreds of thousands that the long term consequences will affect who will never be able to say definitely that it was Covid that changed their lives thanks to the early lack of testing is depressing to me.

ListeningQuietly · 19/07/2020 16:33

DGR
It's astonishing not only how little the government is actually responsible for, but how impotent it seems to be able to rectify that. I must admit I'm starting to wonder what the point of them is.
Their job is to keep their populace safe
all else is decoration

I'm really, really struggling at the moment
the days merge into each other
the news is universally shit

Brexit is going to be as bad as was predicted in the spring of 2016
COVID is distracting those who should be focused
Climate Change is coming down the track

Despite what I used to post on another forum
the light at the end of the tunnel may well be an oncoming train

JeSuisPoulet · 19/07/2020 16:48

So now we are begging EU countries to let Brits stay www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/19/uk-urges-eu-countries-to-ensure-britons-living-abroad-can-stay-after-brexit Nasty EU line again...Hmm

DGRossetti · 19/07/2020 16:57

@JeSuisPoulet

I wonder how many languages I could recognise "get stuffed" (or it's variations) in ?
ListeningQuietly · 19/07/2020 16:59

EU Countries are entirely within their rights to kick fat old Brits who voted for the shit storm
back whence they came
I am genuinely astounded that the Spanish have not been MUCH harsher on the British pensioners who are a drain on the healthcare systems
and on British tourists who think it is OK to literally piss on Magaluf
then again they seem to be shitting on the UK countryside as well at the moment

UK Tourist money is nice, but is it worth the hassle ?

DGRossetti · 19/07/2020 17:03

I am genuinely astounded that the Spanish have not been MUCH harsher on the British pensioners who are a drain on the healthcare systems and on British tourists who think it is OK to literally piss on Magaluf

I think you are judging them by the standards of UK bureaucracy which - whether right or (more often) wrong is relatively fast.

I doubt there will be a rush to do anything. But I suspect what will happen is UK citizens will just discover less and less is available to them and there's no one to complain too.

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