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Brexit

Westminstenders: How many Dead Cats Do You Get In A Thunderstorm?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 24/06/2020 14:14

It never rains. It only pours.

What I wouldn't give for a bit of old fashioned drizzle right now.

4 years on and we are facing a torment of calamities. Brexit, serious political instability in the USA ahead of an election that Trump will refuse to lose even if he does, trade deals with the rest of the world put on 6 week deadlines, anger within the commonwealth, a sick weak dependent PM on the back foot and ill briefed, rampant growing corruption in the Tory party, woke nut jobs out of touch with reality, councils on the brink of bankruptcy and the whole covid-19 crisis.

OP posts:
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Sostenueto · 29/06/2020 05:49

My worry us that if private landlords decide their rental properties are no longer viable or they are in financial difficulties and they decide to sell their properties what happens to the tenants? What if the landlords have their properties repossessed because Covid crisis has bankrupted them? Now Dgd is 18 my DD could become homeless in such a case as I described and the council is not obliged to rehouse her as she effectively is no longer has dependent children?
(Also DD found out landlord has took option of mortgage free months but did not give her any leeway on paying her rent!)

yoikes · 29/06/2020 07:38

Plenty of landlords will do just that sos

One argument the house price crashers cite is the market being flooded with former rental properties.

I'm concerned about 2 family members. Trying to help them both atm but its like wading through treacle dealing with the local council atm.

KonTikki · 29/06/2020 07:48

I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that Air Traffic Controllers will still be required to go into the Office Confused

JeSuisPoulet · 29/06/2020 08:45

Just had a look at Guardian Live and Boris is doing a speech and saying a lot of very "normal" things - that their pandemic response has been "a disaster", that local authorities have to be supported to limit COVID and he TAKES RESPONSIBILITY for the lack of PPE for NHS! I've had to read it twice to confirm i'm not dreaming!

He did again swerve Cummings questions and say now is not the time to look too deeply into the problems, so he's not been taken over by a robot or anything.

JeSuisPoulet · 29/06/2020 08:48

Cynic in me is now thinking a truly huge story must be about to break to bury this.

Jason118 · 29/06/2020 09:15

If he's taking responsibility for the deaths, he's resigning then? Thought not.

SabrinaThwaite · 29/06/2020 09:16

that their pandemic response has been "a disaster"

Reading The Guardian Live I think Johnson said that the pandemic has been a disaster for the UK?

borntobequiet · 29/06/2020 09:17

Maybe the Dead Ringers good/bad Boris is real.
Nothing on earth would surprise me now.

Peregrina · 29/06/2020 09:35

When asked why he didn’t sack Dominic Cummings, Johnson said coronavirus has been a “disaster”, adding it “has been an absolute nightmare for the country” but said there is now the opportunity to change and build something better.

How does this explain why he didn't sack Cummings? Why are our Brexit cheerleaders not complaining about the unelected Cummings since they felt strongly about other 'unelected' officials i.e. EU people like Juncker who were actually elected by other EU leaders.

borntobequiet · 29/06/2020 09:58

Because they don’t do joined-up thinking, Peregrina.

DGRossetti · 29/06/2020 10:04

Just to put the record straight, I said house price adjustment. It was subsequent posters that saw the word "crash" and ran with that rabbit.

But if WFH does really take off, then there will be a reassessment of what adds "value" to property prices. And all of a sudden "being near a station" might not be anywhere near as much a premium as "has room for home office". Bearing in mind some families will need two home offices.

WFH and the ability to move or flex hours as suited also has the potential to revolutionise the childcare provision in the UK. Which - if you are of the cynical mind I am - will be interesting, as I have long believed that childcare has been leveraged by successive governments as a way of keeping women down. And that's a deliberate policy. It could all go.

JeSuisPoulet · 29/06/2020 10:19

Yes DGR, it will be a complete game changer. I don't think it will be such a positive one for BAME though Sad.

Re joined up thinking; Leaver friend posted that the reason unelected Cummings didn't bother him was because in his opinion the Civil Servants have been doing this for decades, so it's just the direction that has shifted. My follow up to that was "Hmm, towards USA I see..." Hmm

Peregrina · 29/06/2020 10:25

I note that Johnson is now channelling Rooseveldt, and not Churchill. I suspect he has realised that Churchill's record is mixed and that Churchill got kicked out in 1945.

I would like to be hopeful about this new investment promised, but I am not. It will be more blather about world beating blah de blah with public money "spaffed" at their wealthy friends, the Sercos, the Dysons, the big accountancy firms, who will then fail at the task. This is what we have seen so far, and why should it be any different?

The only hope I see with the replacement of Mark Sedwill with a paid up Brexiter is that when it goes tits up, they won't easily be able to blame a Remainer. It will be the EU's fault of course, but even that excuse will wear thin after about 5 years. The same is happening now - the Tories have now been in power on their own - counting the stitch up with the DUP as them, and people are beginning to ask questions. The What about Corbyn, he wouldn't have done any better looks increasingly pathetic.

DGRossetti · 29/06/2020 10:29

Remember Boris was begging EU citizens to come back.

Looks like he didn't really mean it.

europestreet.news/uk-ditches-healthcare-coverage-for-pensioners-moving-to-eu-after-brexit/

europestreet.news
UK ditches healthcare coverage for pensioners moving to EU after Brexit transition - Europe Street News
Claudia Delpero
9-11 minutes

The dream of many British pensioners to retire in a Mediterranean country may be crushed by the new Brexit reality. Under a proposal by the British government, from January 2021 the UK will no longer reimburse healthcare for pensioners who move to EU countries.

The draft negotiating text on the future relationship with the EU published in May also cuts social security benefits for people who move between the UK and the EU from next year. These benefits include the possibility to receive carer allowances or to aggregate periods of contributions to be entitled to unemployment allowances.

The proposals concern only people who will move between the UK and the EU after the Brexit transition period, which ends on December 31st, 2020. EU nationals in the UK and British nationals in the EU before that date, and their family members, are protected by the withdrawal agreement and will continue to benefit from the current system. Separate rules, similar to the EU’s, also apply to people moving between the UK and Ireland.
How the EU system works

EU social security regulations cover cash benefits, such as pensions, and healthcare, for people moving across the countries of the European Economic Area and Switzerland.

EU member states remain responsible for their own social security systems, but the EU coordination provides a common framework for people who, over their lifetime, are exposed to multiple systems. The idea is to remove financial and bureaucratic obstacles that individuals would face when dealing with different systems, so they are not penalized nor discouraged from moving.

These common rules are based on four principles: the one country principle, so that a person is liable to the social security system of only one country at a time; the non-discrimination principle, so that people moving to another EU country have the same rights and obligations as nationals of that country; the aggregation principle, so that periods of insurance, employment or residence in other EU states are taken into account when determining a person’s eligibility for benefits; and the exportability principle, so that people can continue receiving benefits even if they move to another member state.

EU rules also define which country is responsible for the social security of people sent to work temporarily in another member state (posted workers), and of people who live in a country and work in another (frontier workers).

All this is supported by administrative links by which countries exchange information, share data and resolve disputes.
Friends without benefits

With the political declaration attached to the withdrawal agreement, the EU and the UK committed to “consider” social security coordination in future arrangements.

The EU published on March 18th a draft treaty, proposing to continue the existing coordination on pensions. The EU also aims to maintain existing rules for sickness, maternity and paternity, unemployment, accidents at work and occupational diseases, invalidity, survivors’, death grants, pre-retirement, family and old age benefits. However, these would cover only pensioners, researchers, students, trainees, people on youth exchanges and their family members. There are no provisions for the self-employed, for example.

The British government responded on May 19th with a series of legal texts expressing its desiderata for the future relationship, including a draft social security coordination agreement. This covers old age pensions, but excludes other cash benefits.

In short, old age pensions are the only benefit for which both the UK and the EU intend to continue the current system.

The reason of the UK approach is explained in a government statement of February 27th. The British government said it would seek similar arrangements to those the UK has with non-EU countries. In addition, the UK does not want to refer to the EU Court for Justice for the resolution of disputes.

But Adrian Berry, immigration barrister at Garden Court Chambers in London, told Europe Street that “bilateral treaties, like that with Australia, are nowhere near as sophisticated as the EU social security system” and that British nationals will be disadvantaged in EU member states.

For example, a British person moving to France for work will start contributing into the French system from zero. In case he or she will lose the job, previous periods of work in the UK will not count towards the insurance period required to be eligible for the unemployment allowance. The same would be for a person who moves from the EU to the UK for work and falls ill, for instance.

People sent to work temporarily to the UK by their EU employers, or vice versa, will continue to contribute to the social security system of the country they come from for up to two years, as it is the case under EU rules on posted workers. But it is not clear what will happen afterwards.

Outside EU rules, some social security benefits are covered under the 1972 European Convention on Social Security, which is not related to the EU, and by earlier bilateral agreements. But the UK and several EU countries have not signed nor ratified the Convention. In addition, not all EU countries have bilateral agreements with the UK. And all these provisions are less comprehensive than the EU’s.

“I don’t think the government has even analysed the impacts of such approach in terms of restrictions of options for people,” Mr Berry said. “UK citizens will find themselves at a disadvantage in respect of social security benefits in the EU, for example if they fall ill or become unemployed while working in an EU member state. But also, if a UK company sends a UK employee to work in its Paris office, it won’t be able to extend the contract beyond two years without losing all that was accrued before in terms of social security. Equally, it will disadvantage the people who move from the EU to the UK from next year. This will make UK businesses uncompetitive, it’s entirely self-defeating.”

The European Parliament has also intervened with a recent resolution calling on negotiators to look again at the situation, considering especially the lack of unemployment benefits for posted and frontier workers.
Reciprocal healthcare

On healthcare, the EU and the UK agree to continue the reimbursement of “necessary” treatments during temporary stays abroad, which is currently possible with the European Health Insurance Card (EHIC). This would cover tourists, frontier workers, and posted workers for up to 24 months.

But the UK has no plans to reimburse healthcare charges for pensioners and other people receiving long-term exportable benefits moving to the EU after Brexit (the current S1 system). Nor are there provisions for planned treatments abroad (S2 system and Patients Rights Directive). The mutual recognition of medical prescriptions will be lost too.

“The proposed new system is a complete blow for middle income people moving across borders and the main group that will suffer from it are people with disabilities, who can currently get the pension from their own country and free healthcare. Not having access to it is a big deal for them,” Adrian Berry said.

A 2018 report by the House of Lords EU Committee noted that the cost of treating pensioners in the EU was often cheaper than in the UK. Spain’s pensioner average cost, for example, was €4,173 compared with £4,396 in the UK.

The report also said that the S2 scheme was “especially valuable for patients with rare diseases or in border situations, where the nearest suitable facilities might be in a different country.” In 2016, 1,342 UK citizens benefited of the S2 system, and about 1,100 EU, EEA and Switzerland nationals were treated in the UK, according to the paper.

“For people living with long-term health conditions (including those needing frequent dialysis, or who suffer from rare diseases), reciprocal arrangements mean that they can avoid the high insurance costs that would otherwise make travel prohibitively expensive,” the report also says.

Speaking in the committee at that time, Professor Martin McKee of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine had “no doubt” that changes to reciprocal healthcare represented a “wonderful opportunity” for the insurance industry.

The UK is likely to seek bilateral agreements with EU countries in the future, as social security is not an exclusive competence of the EU. But that would create a fragmented and even more complex system.

Social security is on the agenda of talks on the future EU-UK relationship taking place in Brussels on July 2nd.

More details are available from the House of Commons Library.

HoneysuckIejasmine · 29/06/2020 10:32

Childcare, especially for shift workers, is awful. Expensive, restrictive. We are a single income household because childcare costs would exceed the second salary. Of course, my salary is lower despite being more qualified and older, so it's me that doesn't work. From Jan our youngest will get the childcare hours funding which we can use as the eldest's school, so I'll be able to work around it. By which time I've been out of the workplace for 5 years. And that's not many years really, just because we had a small age gap and only two children.

I just feel grateful I'm not a single parent Nurse, for example, trying to find childcare for nightshifts with limited notice depending on who produces the rota and how often it changes.

DGRossetti · 29/06/2020 10:32

I note that Johnson is now channelling Rooseveldt, and not Churchill.

Ever driven across the Huey Long bridge in Louisiana ?

Peregrina · 29/06/2020 10:59

No DGR I haven't driven across that bridge.

If Johnson really did implement a Rooseveldt style deal a lot of us would be quite happy. I doubt whether his right wingers would be though.

I suspect his broadcast this morning was more populist blather - he knows he's made a mess of this, so what does he do to hang on?

SabrinaThwaite · 29/06/2020 11:05

Ever driven across the Huey Long bridge in Louisiana ?

Which one?

JeSuisPoulet · 29/06/2020 11:15

@HoneysuckIejasmine I was initially applying to Uni to do Radiography. I spent 2 days up at the local hospital before applying as I needed to show voluntary work on the application (in hindsight this was very odd and I only had to sign a basic confidentiality form). All of the time people were surprised when I said I was a single mum. I observed bariatrics and the senior nurse suddenly became very honest with me; said that so many people on the rota had kids it was going to be hard for me as a single parent to get holidays, let alone day shifts to fit my needs. I am eternally grateful to her as I think me explaining that I have no family support made her especially thoughtful to what I was about to embark upon.

JeSuisPoulet · 29/06/2020 11:22

Saying that my single mum friend has since qualified on the exact same course (said I inspired her when I was interested in it) and managed to get decent shifts in Margate. She has a large family network and her ex still sees their son in the week and on weekends though. For me it would have been impossible.

DGRossetti · 29/06/2020 11:30

@SabrinaThwaite

Ever driven across the Huey Long bridge in Louisiana ?

Which one?

The one in Jefferson ...

Just I remember his name in connection with the New Deal ... wasn't a fan as I recall.

HoneysuckIejasmine · 29/06/2020 11:33

A friend is a midwife. She said many of her colleagues would prefer a fixed shift pattern. Those with partners or single with no kids were happy to do evenings, nights and weekends, and those who were single parents preferred day shifts. Unfortunately the trust insisted that shifts rotate so no-one got "stuck on nights" even if it's what they wanted. Hmm

SabrinaThwaite · 29/06/2020 11:45

I think Johnson is channelling Long more than Roosevelt:

One of the most colorful and controversial figures in Louisiana political history, Huey Long remains complex and controversial for both his political demagoguery and his benevolent populism. Huey P. Long served as governor and senator of Louisiana during the early years of the Great Depression. Long courted previously neglected rural, white voters in order to win the governorship in the 1928 election. He garnered popular support with the promise of numerous construction projects that would provide employment and improved infrastructure, like the Huey P. Long Bridge, throughout the state. During his political reign, Long ordered the construction of thousands of miles of roads, numerous bridges and several municipal buildings, many of which are still in use today.

Throughout his political career, Long used the patronage system to secure political support, supplying lucrative government positions and contracts to loyal voters and generous political donors. Long proclaimed himself “The Kingfish” as a result of his political style that combined populist appeals with authoritative control over state operations and finances.

DGRossetti · 29/06/2020 11:46

Unfortunately the trust insisted that shifts rotate so no-one got "stuck on nights" even if it's what they wanted.

That's because "the system" is set up to benefit the people at the top, not the bottom.

A little OT, but it was fascinating to know that official UK government policy is that in a conflict between "the system" and the people "the system" is supposed to serve, "the system" has to be protected even if it's wrong. I'm thinking of the UC case last week where the DWP had refused to pay people what they were entitled to because it was "too complicated". Luckily the CoA insisted.

(The Home Office got to keep all it's illegally hoovered data a while back because it was "too difficult" to comply with the law. Worth bearing in mind if you are ever stopped for speeding).

DGRossetti · 29/06/2020 11:47

I think Johnson is channelling Long more than Roosevelt:

Suits me. Just let his bodyguard know.