Westminstenders: How many Dead Cats Do You Get In A Thunderstorm?

[RedToothBrush]

It never rains. It only pours.

What I wouldn't give for a bit of old fashioned drizzle right now.

4 years on and we are facing a torment of calamities. Brexit, serious political instability in the USA ahead of an election that Trump will refuse to lose even if he does, trade deals with the rest of the world put on 6 week deadlines, anger within the commonwealth, a sick weak dependent PM on the back foot and ill briefed, rampant growing corruption in the Tory party, woke nut jobs out of touch with reality, councils on the brink of bankruptcy and the whole covid-19 crisis.

@pointythings

I come from a country that does not have jury trial (Netherlands), but the difference is that there is a lot less inequality and that there hasn't been a massive change just to get courts on the cheap. I won't say I am wedded to jury trials, but I strongly question the government's motives on this one.

But the UK has a common law adversarial system.

Well had.

Not a Napoleonic inquisitorial system, directed by prosecutors.

One of the pleasures of watching things like Inspector Montalbano is the difference in systems where he has to report to the prosecutor and the interplay between the jostling jurisdictions like the local police, the carabinieri ...

Trivia fact : Louisiana is the only state in the Union that does not have a common law legal system - they kept their French antecedents of civil law. In case people wanted to know how the US works ...

And who believes the promise that manufacturing will be returned to the UK?

Not I (said the fox).

It will be like the promise to keep Cadburys in the UK. Once they've got what they want it'll be a "Sorry, we had no idea ... " and that is that.

It's worth speculating (alternative history time ?) what the trajectory of things was before WW1 (and I am choosing to consider WW2 the away fixture to WW1s home game) ? Because the war prevented a great exodus of Britons who might otherwise have fucked off to the various anglophone destinations and hastened the collapse of empire ?

Will we see another invented war as a pretext to stop people leaving ?

There is no way on Gods Green Earth the UK could go it alone making it's own satellites. We simply do not have the skills in breadth and depth to do it - even under a threat of war.

I bet Israel could though ....

Interesting fact: Mauritius has a legal system that is based 2/3 on common law and 1/3 on the Napoleonic Code, due to its past as first a French and then a British colony.

There is no way on Gods Green Earth the UK could go it alone making it's own satellites.

Except for the 40% of the world’s small satellites that are built in the UK.

@SabrinaThwaite

There is no way on Gods Green Earth the UK could go it alone making it's own satellites.

Except for the 40% of the world’s small satellites that are built in the UK.

GPS satellites are a very sophisticated beast - you only need to look at the order of countries getting a working GP system to deduce the resources needed.

Meanwhile the Uk has decided to removed itself from ESA - which would have been instrumental in building that 40%.

And regardless of what the UK may or may not be able to do in theory, you are talking about the country which failed at Nimrod, needed French help to build Concorde and the Chunnel, has a Crossrail project older than my DS, and has managed to spend billions on HS2 without a single sleeper being laid.

So, past performance invariably being a predictor of future returns, where would you put your £10 bet that by 2030 the UK will not have designed, built, launched and be successfully running it's "WTHAW" English-speaking GPS system ? I know where mine has gone.

And I write all of that on the understanding that it would be real scientists involved. If Stephen Fry is allowed anywhere near the project all bets are off.

Has a spec been released for the UK system yet ? Because manufacturers will need at least 3 or 4 years to get chipsets to work with a new system to market. That is if there is any market for adding the UK system to the US, EU, Russian, Chinese or Indian systems currently supported.

Things YouGov has just told me:

1. Out of 5 "Influencers", I knew 0
2. Some Universities are going to go bust.

Today I'm feeling a bit bad about being negative about the morality of our young. My DD is a v kind person and compassionate for others and for 'the other' and believes in / hopes for a better world. Anne Enright commented about teens being hard wired for 'ardency,' this is also true and I don't get to choose what DD is ardent about vs decides to ignore. And I don't want to try to diminish her sense of equality and inclusiveness with my cynicism. Have to just find that balance between wanting to share my experience with listening to and supporting her passion.

Right, that said, now everyone can carry on with the usual erudite WM chat about the hopelessness of having what feels to be the most incomptent and corrupt cabinet in living memory and the determined damage being done to all aspects of British life and the rule of law.

Today I'm feeling a bit bad about being negative about the morality of our young.

At every opportunity, the pleasant surprises from the behaviour of the young has far outweighed any odd yobbishness or unpleasantness. DW is "lucky" enough to experience this using a wheelchair - it's the youngsters that hold doors open, and enquire if she's alright if she's trying to get around far more than old gits like me.

Once or twice DW has commented that having a disability - shit as it is - does give you some magic goggles that makes you see the world - or more precisely the people in it - differently.

And we couldn't be more proud of our DS.

Oh dear, there's something in my eye ...

Meanwhile the Uk has decided to removed itself from ESA - which would have been instrumental in building that 40%.

The UK isn’t leaving ESA though, what with it being nothing to do with the EU.

@SabrinaThwaite

Meanwhile the Uk has decided to removed itself from ESA - which would have been instrumental in building that 40%.

The UK isn’t leaving ESA though, what with it being nothing to do with the EU.

My bet stands.

25% of the worlds telecoms satellites are built in Stevenage.

Your bet only stands because of rapid goalpost movements.

@SabrinaThwaite and @DGRossetti both make correct and likely correct statements. We currently make lots of things within the ESA umbrella, which involves the moving around all sorts of goods and people to continue the level of involvement. Moving forwards, once we are fully appraised of the trade deal outcomes, how much of that 40% becomes easy to continue with, compared with moving it to another centre of excellence where logistics and moving of skill sets is easier i.e. within the EU?

25% - maths never a strong point

The UKs space capability is a running sore with me, as I was offered a job with a company called "Marcol" (don't go looking, they're not there anymore) in Thame in 1988. They had video screens to Darmstadt (mission control) and I was told I'd be going there for at least a couple of months a year.

Sadly, not all things can come to pass. If I have any regrets in life it was turning them down. And it's hard to erase that when every day seems to bring exciting new space news. I'm still up for a one way trip to Mars with DW though. After all, it's probably the ultimate eye test.

Having worked closely with, and seen the functioning of the Crown Court system over the past 20 odd years, I have always felt that the expense and time spent on administering for Jury trials to be more a love for the principle, rather than that of achieving justice.
And if I was a small business holder, I would view Jury Service as a total waste of my time.
Barristers enjoy the theatre of the Jury trial, for them it would be a dry, poor substitute to present to just a Court Judge, or three.
The court system is overdue reform and abandoning Jury trials would be a good start.

I grew up in Stevenage. Loads of aerospace industry there - as well as a large GSK site. It's also a very pleasant place, really only let down by its dated town center. I would recommend it as a family friendly town with an easy commute to London, or to the industrial park for the very many STEM jobs available.

If anyone seriously believes the English legal system has anything to do with justice, then I have a bridge for sale ....

@KonTikki

Having worked closely with, and seen the functioning of the Crown Court system over the past 20 odd years, I have always felt that the expense and time spent on administering for Jury trials to be more a love for the principle, rather than that of achieving justice. And if I was a small business holder, I would view Jury Service as a total waste of my time. Barristers enjoy the theatre of the Jury trial, for them it would be a dry, poor substitute to present to just a Court Judge, or three. The court system is overdue reform and abandoning Jury trials would be a good start.

I've never been called for jury duty. In fact I only know 3 people who have. But the enduring advice does seem to be "take a book, you'll be waiting around a while". There has to be a way to streamline the process for jurors without removing them entirely, as I fully agree with the tweet thread RTB posted.

I refer people to Lord Devlins comment above.

Get rid of juries, and you get rid of the last chance of avoiding tyranny. No judge will ever do more than simply apply "the law". Whether that law is to send a family to the gas chamber (or maybe even a gas chamber) or let a man off for shooting someone because of the colour of their skin.

Gone - forever.

Like many here, I have never been called for jury duty. But I know if I were, then I would put my conscience well above any law of the land, and I would be damned for it too. If that meant freeing a future Ian Huntley rather than send them to the gallows, then so be it.

But as we have already established, the English legal system isn't (and has never been) about justice. The clue is in the rather telling need to use the word "justice" everywhere as a sort of deflection. It's really the English "keep the societal status quo" system. But that's probably a bit too long for the nameplates.

A very cynical friend once suggested that the legal system was merely used to indicate to the government where they've left a loophole.

I've been called three times for jury service, excused twice due to breastfeeding a small baby, and the third time I spent four hours waiting with a book only to be dismissed. DH similar but without the breastfeeding, his excuse was being called during a critical work period, and he never had to go in, just phone every night to check. Neither of us actually sat on a jury. Was a big waste of time for me, and a hassle for my boss and my team to plan for my potential absence, though of course we did our civic duty and would do so again.

I'd like to see reform of the jury system and heavy recruitment of younger, more diverse magistrates attempted before scrapping juries. But that won't happen with this govt.

I see the DWP has abandoned it's "It's too hard" line of trying to avoid fixing UC.

I wonder if the Home Office know - after their claim "it's too hard" was accepted as good enough reason not to destroy the illegally harvested DNA and fingerprints from people never charged with a crime ?

I was called for Jury service.
Got a deferral as they had put it during my busiest time of year.
The second set of dates were fine
but then they decided I was not needed the night before

The number of cases that are dropped before hearings after months and months of paperwork
is the part of the system that NEEDS sorting out
SUCH a waste of money and time

Ponting would never have been acquitted by the proposed judge/magistrate - that case alone justifies the jury system and is probably a significant driver of the establishment's desire to remove them

Under resourced CPS and Barristers gaming the system are problems that won't get fixed by removing jury trials.

I got called for jury service years ago. Fortunately for somebody I was sensible enough to follow the instructions given by the judge in the case as to the proper discharge of my duties as a juror. Rather that than privilege my own meagre knowledge over that of someone with far greater understanding and authority.

Frankie
The Ponting case was somewhat "unusual"
I'd be in favour of giving defendants (and their advisers) the choice

• trial in front of a judge and two lay experts

within the next few weeks

• full jury trial

when it can be arranged

THe vast majority of cases could be dealt with quickly
leaving the full resources of the system for the cases that moral justice requires have a jury