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Brexit

Westminstenders: How many Dead Cats Do You Get In A Thunderstorm?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 24/06/2020 14:14

It never rains. It only pours.

What I wouldn't give for a bit of old fashioned drizzle right now.

4 years on and we are facing a torment of calamities. Brexit, serious political instability in the USA ahead of an election that Trump will refuse to lose even if he does, trade deals with the rest of the world put on 6 week deadlines, anger within the commonwealth, a sick weak dependent PM on the back foot and ill briefed, rampant growing corruption in the Tory party, woke nut jobs out of touch with reality, councils on the brink of bankruptcy and the whole covid-19 crisis.

OP posts:
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Emilyontmoor · 26/06/2020 11:23

Crowds on beaches slammed, despite the footage being of people mostly social- distancing as far as I can see, You clearly don’t live in Bournemouth www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/18540748.bournemouth-beach-live-updates-major-incident-declared/

We have a community zoom meeting this afternoon because our local green space has been overwhelmed with reports of people urinating and leaving faeces there and in neighbouring gardens, fighting and being abusive to local residents. There were gazebos set up with parties of 20 and 30. It was far too busy to social distance and in any case people were gathered in big groups that were clearly from many households, no attempt to socially distance in the queues for the pub and Tesco Express (which was emptied of booze by 2pm) . Plenty of other green space in our borough, just not with easy access to booze. 😏 Meanwhile our local big teaching hospital has not opened for elective surgery because the theatres are still being used for Covid patients.

It seems as if the world has split in two with half of us very aware of the risks and basically keeping to our own lockdown and half saying f it, let’s party with no thought for the NHS and other people in the frontline who have had to live with high risk throughout. I don’t even reserve my ire for the party crowd. Our High Street is now a no go zone for the community at pick up time as gangs of parents and children descend on the shops with mingled households and no attempt to socially distance.

Peregrina · 26/06/2020 11:23

The Guardian had a letter the other day about another group of people whose expertise is being wasted. These are the contact tracers for sexually transmitted diseases. They know all about tracing people and treating the information confidentially and with sensitivity.

But why use them, when you can give a bung to your friends in Serco or whoever?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 26/06/2020 11:24

I'm not a labour party member any more I don't really care one way or other for RLB... will vote for anyone who can get tories out, but labour have made it pretty clear young/bame/public servants/left wing not very welcome. Gleeful talk of purging all the time.

Same

DGRossetti · 26/06/2020 11:24

Labour continue to be irrelevant to Scotland, I hear ?

BigChocFrenzy · 26/06/2020 11:31

Whatever one thinks of SD and the Madding Crowd...

When one visits somewhere else where other people live, it is uncivilised to urinate & shit all over that somewhere else
or to leave tons of litter
or to fight or vandalise

DGRossetti · 26/06/2020 11:33

amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/25/uk/uk-supports-eu-four-years-after-brexit-intl-gbr/index.html

According to the European Social Survey (ESS), a pan-European poll carried out every two years, 56.8% of respondents in the UK indicated that they would vote to remain inside the bloc, an increase from 49.9% the last time the survey was published in 2018. The most recent survey shows that of those questioned in the UK, 34.9% said they would vote to leave and 8.3% said they would not vote at all.

Emilyontmoor · 26/06/2020 11:35

rogueantimatter Perhaps you can see the lack of social distancing here? www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-53186920

Peregrina · 26/06/2020 11:36

Boris's vanity project

Airbus A 330. Nice!

rogueantimatter · 26/06/2020 11:37

a no go zone such a frustration. As for pubs, I shudder to think.

rogueantimatter · 26/06/2020 11:43

Emily How very annoying. I wish the authorities who keep saying they don't want to enforce guidance, appeal for common sense blah blah, same as the government line every time, would enforce the government policies. On the one hand, elective surgery, cancer tests etc are still suspended, on the other hand nobody in authority seems to want to be the disciplinarian parent.

RedToothBrush · 26/06/2020 11:44

The secret barrister is spot on. I hadn't seen that story. Its hugely important.

Secret Barrister @barristersecret
I worry that this seismic change to our constitution is not being given the attention it urgently warrants. So I'll say again:

The government wants to abolish jury trials in order to address a court backlog caused by its own cuts, under the pretence that it was caused by Covid.

Pre-Covid, there was a backlog of 39,000 cases in the Crown Court. The govt was content with this appalling state of affairs; happy to make defendants, victims & witnesses wait years for justice.

Covid has pushed the backlog to 41,000.
This, apparently, demands urgent action.

41,000 cases is unacceptable. It requires urgent action. But that action is not tearing up the right to jury trial, and replacing it with trial by a single judge and two magistrates.

Action means resourcing the system properly, re-opening courts, sourcing alternative venues.

While the backlog, and the delay, has been increasing over recent years - due, I'll say it again, to political decisions to remove funding from the courts - it is not the greatest ever.

In 2014, there was a backlog of over 50,000 cases. Nobody suggested removing jury trial.

Recent days have seen senior and retired judges speaking out, saying what a smashing idea it would be to replace juries in certain cases with trial by a judge, just like them, and two magistrates, just like their friends.

It would be a disaster. Make no mistake.

This brilliant thread by @Joanna__Hardy illustrates the problem with representation in the judiciary.

Joanna Hardy @ Joanna_hardy
If a restriction on jury trials is going to be seriously suggested by serious people in serious circumstances then let’s get real.

A little thread

I’m a lawyer (sorry) so I’ll first hit you with some figures. I’ve been reading some spreadsheets. Hold onto your hats.

Circuit Judges are a good place to start. They are a type of Judge who would try lots of these trials.

Of those who answered the question about ethnicity in the July 2019 statistics - and, in fairness, not everyone answered - 4% of Circuit Judges were from a BAME background.

There’s a spreadsheet you can read. Which I did.

Of the Circuit Judges who answered the ethnicity question, 12 said they were Asian or Asian British, 5 said they had a mixed ethnicity and 4 said they were from another ethnic group. 3 said that they were Black or Black British.

Not 3% (of those who answered).

3 Circuit Judges (of those who answered).

You could fit them in a car.

You’ll want to contrast that against the over representation of minority ethnic groups in the Criminal Justice System. The latest figures suggest minority groups are over represented at the following stages:

  • stop and search
  • arrest
  • custodial sentencing
  • prison population

The lay magistracy - who it is suggested would sit with a judge in pairs - is more racially diverse. Which is, I suppose, a start.

However - uh oh - 84% of them are over the age of 50.

Magistrates can be appointed from the age of 18.

Do you know how many are under 30?

1%

Please don’t get me started on how many defendants are aged between 18-29.

And don’t ever get me started on how many under 18s - children - end up in the Crown Court.

There are more spreadsheets.

I’ve read them.

In Northumbria, the stats show there wasn’t a single magistrate under the age of 30 when the figures were reported. Not one.

(As an aside - young people, please apply to be Magistrates).

So I’ve hit you with the stats. But why does it matter? It matters because when I represent someone from a minority background or a young person or both they (regularly) see a Judge who doesn’t look or sound like them.

“Will the Judge get it?” I’m often asked. They’re asking will the Judge understand the choices I made, the phrases I use, my social media posts, the things we do where I live, the challenges I face, the norms of my age and my community.

Will they get it? Will they get me? Will they get this? Is this fair? Does it look fair? Does it feel fair?

And I always say the same thing. “The Judge doesn’t get to decide - the 12 voices on the jury decide.”

And then the Judge tells everyone that Judges don’t get to decide.

“There are 13 judges” they tell juries. “You 12 are the judges of the facts. And I’m the judge of the law.”

12 voices. 12 experiences. 12 opinions and journeys and bruises and lessons and everything a human picks up along the way.

Those are the qualifications needed to judge other humans. Not law degrees and enthusiasm.

It’s often not a perfect mix. But it is always the better one.

Juries can judge facts. They can spot a liar and they hate liars. They can hear honesty in the heartbreak, in the ferocity, in the silence. They sometimes hear stories so raw, so painful that the room reels - they can barely bring themselves to listen, to judge. But they do.

And as we search for who can best assess the honesty, the desires, the wants, the greed, the motives of fellow humans - we don’t need to look much further. This, the most human task of all, should not be professionalised or restricted.

Not for expediency.

Not for a backlog.

As far as defence briefs go - this could be our most important. Lawyers of the future will ask what we did, what we said when they suggested eroding it. For those of us holding this crumbling, miserable system together - the jury trial is the only glimmer. Let’s keep it shining.

The secret barrister @ barristersecret
Readers of my book will know from Chapter 2 the problems with our magistrates' courts, and the way we appoint and train magistrates. The senior judiciary, sadly, are wholly unaware. They have not appeared in a magistrates' court for decades. They do not see what we see.

These wise judicial heads will be rolled out by the government over coming weeks to show how sensible and moderate and not-at-all-worrying it would be to replace juries with judges and magistrates.

With respect, they do not speak with knowledge or authority on this subject.

Please do not be distracted or conned.

The government has had since March to identify 'Nightingale' courts to make jury trial workable. It has done nothing. It has sat on its hands, letting the backlog grow.

Now it will say that there is no choice but to replace juries.

Lie.

So, for those at the back:

🔴The court backlog was caused by govt cuts, not Covid
🔴We had a bigger backlog in 2014 and nobody suggested abolishing juries
🔴Any decision to replace juries with judges & magistrates would be in the interests of government, not justice.

P.S. To deal with those hijacking this conversation for other agendas, this is not saying that juries are perfect and the system cannot be improved. They are not, and I think it definitely can.

But the government is not promising to improve justice - just to make it cheaper.

P.S. To deal with those hijacking this conversation for other agendas, this is not saying that juries are perfect and the system cannot be improved. They are not, and I think it definitely can.

But the government is not promising to improve justice - just to make it cheaper.

This is why talking about the importance of statutes rather than institutional level racism is important.

At the exact same time as BLM protests, the government is doing this under the radar and without a peep from the British press. Its quite extraordinary and blantant.

And its being blamed on covid (a pattern we will see a lot of)

We already know there are massive problems with the family court system and rape trials because of sexism and elitism. And this has called for change.

And instead we see this being done.

Wow just wow.

I'm stunned.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 26/06/2020 11:48

.

Westminstenders: How many Dead Cats Do You Get In A Thunderstorm?
rogueantimatter · 26/06/2020 11:50

Come on, you can't accuse the government of sitting on its hands, it's been busy, making painting a plane and failing to make trade deals.

DGRossetti · 26/06/2020 11:50

We need to remember Lord Devlin.

Again.

He said: "Each jury is a little parliament. The jury sense is the parliamentary sense. I cannot see the one dying and the other surviving. The first object of any tyrant in Whitehall would be to make parliament utterly subservient to his will; and the next to overthrow or diminish trial by jury, for no tyrant could afford to leave a subject's freedom in the hands of 12 of his countrymen. So that trial by jury is more than an instrument of justice and more than one wheel of the constitution; it is the lamp that shows that freedom lives."

Peregrina · 26/06/2020 12:03

Ha I beat you to it there DGR but you had to read my link.

Peregrina · 26/06/2020 12:05

It is all so depressing and frightening about what is being scrapped under the excuse of Covid. Education, health, jury trials, freedom to go and meet people. Talk about not wasting a good crisis.

But still we have apologists for this Government.

DGRossetti · 26/06/2020 12:06

@Peregrina

Ha I beat you to it there DGR but you had to read my link.
I think it was more a case of convergent evolution ?
DGRossetti · 26/06/2020 12:12

I wonder how Cummings plan to stretch C-19 out until 2024, when it can be used to swerve the election will play out.

Imagine having the privilege to have voted in the UKs last election !

If you've still got them, keep your registration cards - might prove to be collectors items.

Peregrina · 26/06/2020 12:18

I still have late DMs war time identity card, and DH's post war Identity card. My card got lost sometime around 1964. It was due to expire when I was 16!

prettybird · 26/06/2020 12:29

The Times says prime minister Boris Johnson and chancellor Rishi Sunak signed off on the purchase of a 20% stake in satellite operator OneWeb on Thursday night, after the UK was unable to access the EU’s Galileo satellite navigation system because of Brexit.

and ......

OneWeb filed for bankruptcy in March in the US, where most of its operations are located, after failing to secure new funding.

From the New European article.

You couldn't make it up Hmm

What is it we often say on these threads? Follow the money?

I'd be interested to see the links and/or relationships with OneWeb and the Conservative Party Hmm

pointythings · 26/06/2020 12:32

I come from a country that does not have jury trial (Netherlands), but the difference is that there is a lot less inequality and that there hasn't been a massive change just to get courts on the cheap. I won't say I am wedded to jury trials, but I strongly question the government's motives on this one.

SabrinaThwaite · 26/06/2020 12:33

one side of the Union flag tail fin has had it effectively painted upside down

No, it’s following convention.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-the-flag-painted-onto-the-vip-voyager-aircraft-isnt-backwards/

prettybird · 26/06/2020 12:36

@DGRossetti

Labour continue to be irrelevant to Scotland, I hear ?
Who? Wink
SabrinaThwaite · 26/06/2020 12:41

I'd be interested to see the links and/or relationships with OneWeb and the Conservative Party

Cummings recommended buying a stake in OneWeb.

www.ft.com/content/a1da90e8-8869-4740-b5eb-d8c6339d8e2f

prettybird · 26/06/2020 12:58

Its satellites are also manufactured in Florida in a joint venture with Airbus. It has promised to repatriate manufacturing to the UK.

Airbus, that prime example of a European multinational? Confused

And who believes the promise that manufacturing will be returned to the UK?