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Brexit

Westminstenders: Following the EU lead

969 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/05/2020 17:50

Coronavirus poses a particularly Irish shaped question. How the UK responds to Irish plans for ending lockdown and whether Arlene continues to back an all Ireland plan will be fascinating to watch and see justified regardless of which way we go.

The UK for all its new found independence is looking very closely to the success / failure of EU strategies before making our own plan public. Mainly because we've yet to write one.

Johnson hasn't led much. He's delegated. Yet he gets all the praise for doing the sum total of fuck all and never being the bad guy. There always another fall guy to blame.

Economically we are stuffed and promises of a very quick bounce back don't look likely based on public confidence and willingness to return to places like pubs restaurants and shops.

Our ability to adapt to new conditions at short notice has been tested and businesses can not afford to do this again soon.

This is the background to which we go into talks. Both sides need an extension to serve their best interests. Johnson is determined to cut our nose of to spite our face for the sake of his legacy and to keep those paying the back handers and dodging tax happy.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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GaspodeWonderCat · 09/05/2020 08:29

@Peregrina Fri 8 May at 19:37. Late reply but that article resonated with me. I honour those who served, fought and died in 2 world wars. But this VE day celebration felt like a jingoistic Brexit hurrah. I served in the RN and did not have to fight in Europe (friends did in the Balkans & NI). But no world war as for my parents and grandparents. Thank you for posting and am going to write to my MP (again) re extension to transition.

TheElementsOfMedical · 09/05/2020 08:30

Lots of squirrels thrown at the thread, I see Grin "Look! Over there!"

Basically, that as long as there's anything to look at, anywhere else, that means things here are GRATE Wink

squid4 · 09/05/2020 09:04

A&E full last night. People drinking falling over breaking things old people out for VE day collapsing in the street etc etc. Felt very much like lockdown over...

night! zzzzzzzz

WifeofDarth · 09/05/2020 09:12

Sleep well Squid!
(Belated pink, still lurking)

Piggywaspushed · 09/05/2020 09:17

The street parties on my estate were ridiculous. Lots of , in particular, women sitting around in tight circles on deck chairs gossiping, their kids paying together, men manning Pimms stalls and BBQs. Big 'socially distanced' disco. OK, so everyone was on their drives, front gardens etc mostly : but they were definitely, by anyone's definition, 'gatherings'. It was like a strange version of a Butlins disco.

People were drinking all day so am not surprised to hear of A and E, although that probably would have been worse on a Friday bank Holiday under 'normal' circumstances, I suppose?

squid4 · 09/05/2020 09:27

yeah, felt like a "normal" pre-pandemic friday night (I was on the non-covid side)

was SO hot. dreading the summer in PPE

oh and anecdotally heard we have tested 1000 random asymptomatic staff members and found 18 positives (was chatting to one of them who is back at work now - young, no symptoms whatsoever)

squid4 · 09/05/2020 09:27

this thread is good!

twitter.com/andymoz78/status/1259029829137190913

MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 09/05/2020 09:35

Been out to the shops this morning and noticed a theme.

All the VE Day bunting is wall-to-wall union jack. Not a stars and stripes, maple leaf, tricolour or heaven forfend a hammer and sickle anywhere to be seen.

Almost like they don't have a clue what they're supposed to e celebrating.

prettybird · 09/05/2020 09:36

Absolutely zero bunting or any evidence of "celebrations" up here in Glasgow. And as far as I can make out from the BBC reporting (Wink), none anywhere else in Scotland either. The only pictures are of the "serious" stuff, observing the 2 minutes silence and the laying of wreaths.

HoneysuckIejasmine · 09/05/2020 09:43

mockers there's another thread in AIBU in which someone asserts that "we stood alone and won". Then concede that some other countries leant us some troops but that's not really helping properly. And finally "just my opinion" when challenged repeatedly. FFS.

Piggywaspushed · 09/05/2020 09:50

If you get The Times , there are some interesting stats in there today about who different countries think 'won the war'. The belief that the Soviets made a significant contribution has dropped form 70& some years back to now about 13%. The French tend to credit the Soviets and the US and nearly all nations (apart from us) say that the US made the most significant contributions. Lots of countries completely overlooked. I must say reading Captain Corelli many years ago opened my eyes to almost untaught WW2 history.

Re the bunting, though, I am sure a lot of that is to mimic the street scenes on 1945 , which also featured British flags.

The famous flag man in my village is flying a different flag every day this week : GB yesterday and today, French tomorrow, Polish on Monday I believe, then I think he plans to do Canada, US, NZ etc. I don't think the hammer and sickle will get an outing.

borntobequiet · 09/05/2020 09:56

Villages round here full of responsible socially distancing tea parties in drives. Lots of Union flags, St George’s crosses. Beautiful weather so superficially quaint and charming. After a second thought, pointless and delusional. This is the 21st century in the middle of a pandemic so badly managed by our government that we have the highest number of deaths in Europe despite being in an advantageous position initially to manage it properly. And the population celebrates a 75 year old victory that was a collaborative effort between the UK a number of other countries with jingoistic displays of sentiment and misplaced triumphalism. It really pissed me off.

MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 09/05/2020 09:59

I unreservedly apologise for leaving the Poles out of my list of flags. They lost a quarter of their population. No nation suffered more. We promised to defend them, did fuck all then gave them to Stalin after 303 Squadron showed us how to fight.

KonTikki · 09/05/2020 10:10

Matthew Parris has an interesting article in the Times today.
Johnson needs to take control of the cockpit.
This crisis is a flight into the unknown and we need the captain to stop the blistering and talk to us like grownups.
He goes on to compare Johnson with the "increasingly formidable Sir Keir Starmer"

prettybird · 09/05/2020 10:12

Dh managed to get the Matthew Paris article with a share token, to get behind the pay wall.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-needs-to-take-control-of-the-cockpit-25t0tw7ck?shareToken=95e507a56a156583fca9f5c8323a2f37

boatyardblues · 09/05/2020 10:18

Elements & MathAnxiety - I have reposted your long posts about the history of “Chinese” in the kdrama thread, as most of us watch some Mandarin and Taiwanese drama as well and some posters speak or are learning Mandarin or Cantonese. We all love a bit of language insight, so I know your long, informative posts will be appreciated there.

RedToothBrush · 09/05/2020 10:44

The growing need is for intellect, clarity, an end to nonsense about the Blitz and boasts about how well Britain is doing (we aren’t), and a readiness to talk to citizens as adults. Regrettably, Johnson has an Etonian distrust of intellect among colleagues, and a wariness of explaining things honestly and properly to hoi polloi. Perhaps everyone is waiting for the old Boris to bounce back, but is “back” the word? He was once noisier and bouncier, for sure, but was his ever a good, problem-solving mind? Can you remember any big dilemma of government he ever tackled and sorted? Any unpopular policy he ever won us over to? There’s a hole at the top of government and I doubt it’s Boris-shaped. If it is, we shall see tomorrow.

There is a growing political vacuum appearing. Its not going unnoticed.

Political vacuums are very bad things.

OP posts:
LouiseCollins28 · 09/05/2020 11:32

For my two penneth, thinking at an individual level the person anyone in Europe people ought to be thanking for contributing the most by far to “winning the war” (if there are any left) would be a very, very elderly Russian.

It should also be regnised that this was VE and the war wasn’t over, as someone with a relative who served his war outside the European theatre I have always been conscious of this.

I have, however read article after article basically saying “it wasn’t us” and calling out those having the temerity to celebrate VE Day 75. Most of them have an unpleasant undertone in saying that our celebrating Britain is wrong and I’m really tiring of such sentiments.

DGRossetti · 09/05/2020 12:00

All the VE Day bunting is wall-to-wall union jack. Not a stars and stripes, maple leaf, tricolour or heaven forfend a hammer and sickle anywhere to be seen.

For my two penneth, thinking at an individual level the person anyone in Europe people ought to be thanking for contributing the most by far to “winning the war” (if there are any left) would be a very, very elderly Russian.

Some historical accuracy and balance.

On a slightly OT subject, is it just me, or does anyone else seeing the recent flood of colour images from WW2 suddenly feel as if it was much closer in time than it felt 30 years ago when most of the images were black and white ?

(Also, doesn't that picture look like it either came from - or could go one - the cover of an airport lounge paperback ?)

Westminstenders: Following the EU lead
DGRossetti · 09/05/2020 12:07

There is a world of difference between "commemorate" and "celebrate". Or there should be.

I must admit I was quite taken aback at the number of posters on MN that were so open with their criticisms of the way the event had been hijacked and the groupthink expected. It seems there's still a lingering immunity in Britain to mindless jingoism and pavlovian flag waving. I wonder what plans are in the pipeline to neutralise it ?

PawFives · 09/05/2020 12:19

Something that’s been puzzling me about not closing our borders (quarantining, testing etc.) Why hasn’t there been more of a outcry about this from Brexiters? After all there’s been much noise about how we need to control our own borders (which we always could anyway Hmm

MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 09/05/2020 12:31

Please: USSR, not "Russia."

DGR's picture is the propaganda recreation after the shooting stopped, very much like the Americans on Iwo Jima. In both cases it was because the inital flag wasn't thought big enough.

(And the yanks also took the opportunity to remove the Black Marine from the photo.)

DGRossetti · 09/05/2020 12:34

DGR's picture is the propaganda recreation after the shooting stopped, very much like the Americans on Iwo Jima. In both cases it was because the initial flag wasn't thought big enough.

(Sigmund Freud looks down from heaven, nodding sagely ...)

DGRossetti · 09/05/2020 12:39

bylinetimes.com/2020/05/07/after-the-coronavirus-crisis-what-is-the-point-of-the-conservative-party/

After the Coronavirus Crisis - What is the Point of the Conservative Party? – Byline Times
Byline Times (bylinetimes.com/)

Gareth Roberts makes his case that UK’s catastrophic handling of the COVID-19 pandemic should not be blamed on Boris Johnson’s Government alone — but on the entire Party

I write this on another calamitous week for our Government in its desperate attempts to cope with the Coronavirus pandemic.

The resignation of Professor Neil Ferguson — for breaking the lockdown provisions he was in part responsible for introducing — on the same day UK took up its place as the country in Europe with the highest number of deaths as a result of COVID-19 encapsulates the way our nation has tried and failed to deal with a public health crisis.

This is the single most shameful example of our Government’s dereliction of the duty it owes to its people. At some point in the future questions will be asked, hands will be wrung, excuses made, people blamed. Sadly, if recent precedent is anything to go by, the wrong people will be blamed, lessons will be ignored and excuses found.

So I’m going to make an early pitch at firing an arrow directly at the heart of those who are to blame for this catastrophe – the modern Conservative Party.

The case against the Conservative Party starts way back, but I’m going to ask you to consider the interview that the then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher gave with Women’s Own Magazine in October 1987. Newly re-elected for her historic third term, the Prime Minister, declared amidst the knitting patterns and domestic advice that: ‘There is no such thing as society.’

It is the one Thatcherite proclamation that all her successors have been united in trying to run away from. Her cold view about our interaction with each other doesn’t tally with socially-acceptable community-friendly conservatism that each Tory Party leaders from John Major to Boris Johnson has sought to establish in the minds of the electorate.

Instead, they’ve tried to put blue water between themselves and Thatcher by declaring that actually they do believe in society. They’ve even attempted to describe the society that they dreamily aspire to, be it the old maids riding bicycles through idyllic villages of Major, to Boris Johnson’s society of Churchillian Brits rolling up their sleeves to take on the might of the European elites.

It’s all been con trick. A careful reading of the Woman’s Own interview shows that Thatcher’s line about society came after she gave a long diatribe about how the state was not there to help everyone, but rather that people should learn to help themselves by making as much money as they could.

“Children and people,” she said, “have been given to understand ‘I have a problem, it’s the government’s job to cope with it’…. they cast their problems on to society and what is society? There is no such thing.’” She went on to say “it is our duty to look after ourselves,’ and ‘there is nothing wrong with making as much money as you can.”

In these words Conservatism is laid bare — it is the dogma, the creed that has driven every Tory Chancellor and Cabinet Minister ever since, it is the binary code that runs through every Tory MP: the state is not here to solve your problems or help you, it simply exists to ensure that you can make as much money as you can.

The Conservative Party have ruthlessly pursued that ideology: they have attempted to dismantle the state: all publicly owned industry was sold off, everything that could possibly be placed into private hands has been transferred, everything that could be tendered with a view to profit has been — not because it enables society to function better (though I concede that may sometimes be the case), not because it gives the people freedom and liberty allowing them to learn and love and thrive, but because it enabled the lucky few to enrich themselves.

Ask those in the South Wales valleys or the North Yorkshire coalfields or the old industrial heartlands of the Tyne and the Clyde what replaced their old industries and the answers will be the same — ‘suffering,’ ‘social disharmony,’ ‘inequality,’ ‘distrust’.

Then they gave us austerity, ten years of a disastrous economic policy in which essential public services were decimated and the gap between the richest in society — for whom austerity was not even an inconvenience — and the poorest has grown. The ability of an individual to climb the social ladder to better themselves through education and experience and enterprise is at an all-time low. Mrs Thatcher may have denied the existence of society, but she was silent about the existence of a rigid, economically determined system of class. But Conservatives are very relaxed about class.

Boris Johnson and his band of Brexiteers try to paint a picture of Britain as optimistic and dynamic, ready to take on all comers like a taut middle-weight boxer, but the reality is that the Britain they have created is a slow, bloated, unfit beast living on the glories long since past.

The Coronavirus has exposed the Conservative Party.

Firstly, there has been the inability of the Government to make swift and effective decisions that are in the interests of society as a whole. We shouldn’t be surprised at this: if you go into politics to create wealth for you and your friends, then your ability to govern for society as a whole is always going to be limited because its just not what you are about.

Then there have been the practical problems of inadequate equipment provided to those who are tasked with fighting the virus, clearly the result of years of cuts and underfunding due to the slavish preoccupation of cutting taxes for the richest.

Next, has been the refusal to take advice from those who really know what they are talking about — something which shouldn’t surprise us either because an ideologue will never listen to anything that challenges the hegemony of the orthodox view.

All these things have led us to where we are today: a country singularly unable to cope with a crisis: a country that now boasts the highest death rate in Europe and a country where those who are the poorest in our society have suffered the most by dying in the greatest numbers.

That is the stark legacy of Thatcher and all those who have followed her in the modern Conservative Party. No one else can be blamed.

There is a society, it does exist, it is made up of good decent, hard-working people who do care about their neighbours and their friends and their family. They are the people who weep at poverty and illness and unfairness, the people who truly strive to ensure that our country allows everyone to reach their potential, not just the lucky few.

If there is to be one good thing to come out of this Coronavirus crisis it will be that this society rises up and says never again will be governed by the dishonesty, greed and incompetence that is the Conservative Party.

ListeningQuietly · 09/05/2020 12:51

The UK's version of 2 week quarantine is utter bollocks.
A friend who caught the last flight out of Rome in March was told to self Isolate after going home across Central London by public transport

If you are going to quarantine arrivals do it properly

  • Take people straight from the plane to an airport hotel.
  • Keep flights separate so they do not cross contaminate
  • test everybody every day
  • release all those with antibodies
  • treat all those who are ill

Alternatively, pop them on the tube to go home an socially distance under some bunting Angry