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Brexit

Westminstenders: Events...

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2020 10:03

Events have taken over. EU / UK negotiation have been put on ice due to covid-19.

The US has banned all travel from Europe - apart from to the uk and Ireland - in a manner which is highly political to drive wedges.

The effects of leaving the European Medicines Agency may be much more serious than anyone could have anticipated.

There's a oil price war going on between Saudi Arabia and Russia which has further driven market fears led by covid-19.

There the crisis in Turkey with Syrian refugees which is also distracting the EU.

We are facing lockdown and economic turmoil over the next weeks and months.

Johnson is having his leadership moment with deaths projected to possibly exceed UK WW2 deaths.

We are desperately trying to recruit negotiators as it's suddenly become apparent we don't have enough to carry out all the trade deals we want.

The civil service will be stretched to its limited by covid-19. Yet we also have Brexit to consider.

Where next? How bad are things going to get?

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Whowantstogotothepark · 14/03/2020 09:23

He looks knackered in this photo.

When I watched the press conference (many... loved ones...before their time), I compared him to the press conference he gave in Oct/Nov with Leo Varadkar. Then he was little a naughty school boy with smirks and attention-seeking tics (look at me, look at me, even when he is talking). Now he looks 10 years older, knackered and kind of haunted.

I guess having participated in the formulation of a policy that will result in the death of hundreds of thousands and then being the numpty who has to deliver it, will drain even the most sociopathic. Not so many jolly gapes now eh?

borntobequiet · 14/03/2020 09:25

I think HIV-AIDS is now thought to have been around far earlier than first supposed? (Happy to be corrected on that.)
I had a dear friend who died of multiple organ failure in his mid thirties in 1983. Not gay but an intravenous drug user who had not always been properly careful about equipment. Death was put down to the effects of drugs (including alcohol) but I have wondered from time to time...

Sostenueto · 14/03/2020 09:26

Hope you will recover clash but think of those that haven't got online shopping how difficult it's going to be to get people to isolate when they should☹️

ClashCityRocker · 14/03/2020 09:32

Absolutely. We're lucky, tbf, if the shit really hit the fan I'm sure we could get friends or family to drop essentials off on the doorstep.

I'm currently looking at volunteering opportunities or some sort of network who can do the same for people who don't have anything (When I'm better of course!). Am also sending extra cash donations to the food bank - they're being hit hard already, as people are buying up all the staples they usually rely on.

Mistigri · 14/03/2020 09:37

Yes mistigirl your right but in so doing you have to consider ALL the population and judge whose lives will be disrupted the most.

There is a large overlap between the people whose lives will be disrupted most by school closures and the most (physically, economically, socially) vulnerable.

You have to choose. More deaths sooner, or less disruption. There is no easy solution to this.

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2020 09:40

It's time the community started being responsible for themselves. Does the government really have to pass laws and enforce people not to travel to countries with Covid, isolate whole family if one has symptoms, follow hand washing and gel use advice etc? Surely this is common sense and we should all be thinking of the wider community. But given the selfish me me society we live in that maybe too much to ask....

The problem is you are dealing with a certain mentality.

Just before the 2008 crash when many were predicting it (including us) there were lots of people who were saying "if I couldn't afford it, then I wouldn't be allowed to borrow that much".

We have the same mentality in "if it was that bad, then the government would stop flights and close the border".

The common thing here is the economy and profit over public interest and good.

What you are talking about is an ultra neoliberal ideal that everyone takes care of themselves and takes responsibility themselves.

In terms of behaviour that just doesn't happen. Lots of people do abdicate responsibility and critical thinking because they assume someone else will do it for them and gave their best interests at heart.

If that were true we'd have less social issues full stop though.

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Sostenueto · 14/03/2020 09:46

So true Mistigirl but underlying all the measures the Gov. Is doing is the screaming obvious fact that they know the NHS will be unable to cope and politically because to be honest the Tories really don't give a fig for the working classes it will cause huge damage to them when people realise due to austerity and starving the NHS of funds for a decade at least the death toll will be greater. Hence the Gov. Trying to push the peak ahead to summer and not now. 798 known cases today a jump of 200+ and apart from stopping testing to stem panic and shortage of results they don't want the truth out too early. So as hard as they are not trying to politicise Covid I'm afraid it is becoming just that.

Sostenueto · 14/03/2020 09:49

Yep agree totally red but I can live in hope if a better societyGrin

Butterymuffin · 14/03/2020 09:53

Not so many jolly gapes now eh?

A silver lining of the current clusterfuck for me is that I can at least hope Johnson is waking up every morning to the feeling that this is all harder and a lot less fun than he expected. It's what he deserves. Though at a high price for the rest of us.

Sostenueto · 14/03/2020 10:02

Compared to having Trump as your leader dare I say we are slightly better off than the USA ( dives for cover behind settee)Grin

Sostenueto · 14/03/2020 10:03

Emergency plans now being made for prisons.

Mockerswithnoknockers · 14/03/2020 10:10

Being PM puts years on you, at least five for every year in office from all the worry. Blair especially went grey and looked drained.

The exception is Cameron who was only part-time.

prettybird · 14/03/2020 10:12

We were due to go an Awards Dinner on Thursday (dh has been nominated for a Sports Volunteer award) but the dinner has been cancelled and they'll just announce the winners on social media.

I have a hair appointment on Thursday which tbh was a coincidence because I forgot the date of the dinner Blush - but dh doesn't want to go out for a nice meal instead in case he doesn't win Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 14/03/2020 10:27

We are way past when stopping flughts woulg+d get this under control

Clash e schools in Germany

Germany has a federal system, consisting of 16 states each with basically their own Parliament and leader

So a lot of policy decided at state level and organised there
The federal govt can advise on a lot of things, but - by design - has less power than in many other countries

The individual states have started choosing to close all their schools, starting obviously with the hardest hit states

I don't think my own state has yet
We have 148 confirmed cases, no deaths, in a population of 6.2 million
My local administrative district of 275,000 has 3 cases, all confined to home of course, under monitoring

Frau Merkel has warned us to expect around 60% of the population may be infected,
so expecting current 3,675 cases to rocket into the millions over the next 3 months
I plan to self-isolate through at least the worst 6 weeks or so, as I'm 63 (no health conditions afaik)

At that stage, self-isolation will be on trust, but so far people here behaving very responsibly and doing as advised

BigChocFrenzy · 14/03/2020 10:28

Good article explaining Germany's CV strategy
and low death rate so far despite high level of cases

(that would obviously change when / if the health system gets overloaded, but we don't seem near that point yet)

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-10/germany-and-coronavirus

There were 35,000 coronavirus tests done in private practices last week with an unknown number also being carried out at hospitals,
according to the KBV German Assn. of Physicians.

The country has ramped up capacity and can now perform 12,000 tests per day.

Whowantstogotothepark · 14/03/2020 10:35

It's time the community started being responsible for themselves. Does the government really have to pass laws and enforce people not to travel to countries with Covid, isolate whole family if one has symptoms, follow hand washing and gel use advice etc? Surely this is common sense and we should all be thinking of the wider community. But given the selfish me me society we live in that maybe too much to ask...

I posted this on another thread, but I hate this "self-reponsibilty" mindset: Most people aren't in the financial position to self-isolate for 7 days for a sore throat. It is completely wrong to put that responsibility on individual employees when they could face the sack. Or small business-owners when they could go under. They need support - both moral and financial - from the government. As usual the government takes the cheapskate option and shifts the blame to those at the bottom.

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2020 10:39

Sebastian Payne @SebastianEPayne
Since mid Feb, Cummings has been driving the government’s approach to coronavurus:

“He operates with a campaign mentality, combined with consistent message and making sure everyone is on the same page and every government department is working together.”

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BigChocFrenzy · 14/03/2020 10:43

Just seen, schools in my state closed from Monday until at least Friday 17 April, the end of the usual Easter holiday.
Looks like all of Germany now

Our state site says schools will stay open to look after children from a list of essential workers
I assume the same sensible system will roll out nationwide

Any country that closes schools would have to do the same

BigChocFrenzy · 14/03/2020 10:48

Employees here already get 6 weeks full pay when sick / accident, then the state / private insurance pays 80% pay

Self-employed have insurance for sickness too

Smalll & large businesses will be able to get help from the 550 billion credit Merkel made available, slightly more than in the 2008 crisis.

She said govt would help any business to stay afloat
Kufthansaa have already asked for help

Germany nearly always has a large budget surplus, 58 bn last year, so govt finances OK

BigChocFrenzy · 14/03/2020 10:50

Self-isolation for coughs & colds will be paid in full,
part of why govt support promised for businesses that need it

BigChocFrenzy · 14/03/2020 10:50

"Kufthansaa"
< spanks iPad > Lufthansa

HenHarrier · 14/03/2020 11:08

Interesting thread from psychology Prof on the possible Government strategy:

1. The govt strategy on #Coronavirus is more refined than those used in other countries and potentially very effective. But it is also riskier and based on a number of assumptions. They need to be correct, and the measures they introduce need to work when they are supposed to.

2. This all assumes I'm correct in what I think the govt are doing and why. I could be wrong - and wouldn't be surprised. But it looks to me like. . .

3. A UK starting assumption is that a high number of the population will inevitably get infected whatever is done – up to 80%. As you can’t stop it, so it is best to manage it.

There are limited health resources so the aim is to manage the flow of the seriously ill to these.

4. The Italian model the aims to stop infection. The UKs wants infection BUT of particular categories of people. The aim of the UK is to have as many lower risk people infected as possible. Immune people cannot infect others; the more there are the lower the risk of infection

5. That's herd immunity.
Based on this idea, at the moment the govt wants people to get infected, up until hospitals begin to reach capacity. At that they want to reduce, but not stop infection rate. Ideally they balance it so the numbers entering hospital = the number leaving.

6. That balance is the big risk.

All the time people are being treated, other mildly ill people are recovering and the population grows a higher percent of immune people who can’t infect. They can also return to work and keep things going normally - and go to the pubs.

7.The risk is being able to accurately manage infection flow relative to health case resources. Data on infection rates needs to be accurate, the measures they introduce need to work and at the time they want them to and to the degree they want, or the system is overwhelmed.

8. Schools: Kids generally won’t get very ill, so the govt can use them as a tool to infect others when you want to increase infection. When you need to slow infection, that tap can be turned off – at that point they close the schools. Politically risky for them to say this.

9. The same for large scale events - stop them when you want to slow infection rates; turn another tap off. This means schools etc are closed for a shorter period and disruption generally is therefore for a shorter period, AND with a growing immune population. This is sustainable

10. After a while most of the population is immune, the seriously ill have all received treatment and the country is resistant. The more vulnerable are then less at risk. This is the end state the govt is aiming for and could achieve.

11. BUT a key issue during this process is protection of those for whom the virus is fatal. It's not clear the full measures there are to protect those people. It assumes they can measure infection, that their behavioural expectations are met - people do what they think they will

12. The Italian (and others) strategy is to stop as much infection as possible - or all infection. This is appealing, but then what? The restrictions are not sustainable for months. So the will need to be relaxed. But that will lead to reemergence of infections.

13. Then rates will then start to climb again. So they will have to reintroduce the restrictions each time infection rates rise. That is not a sustainable model and takes much longer to achieve the goal of a largely immune population with low risk of infection of the vulnerable

14. As the government tries to achieve equilibrium between hospitalisations and infections, more interventions will appear. It's perhaps why there are at the moment few public information films on staying at home. They are treading a tight path, but possibly a sensible one.

15. This is probably the best strategy, but they should explain it more clearly. It relies on a lot of assumptions, so it would be good to know what they are - especially behavioural. Most encouraging, it's way too clever for #BorisJohnson to have had any role in developing.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1238518371651649538.html

HenHarrier · 14/03/2020 11:11

@AuldAlliance

The fact that the virus first emerged back in November is why the NHS planner that I spoke with last week thinks that the virus spread wider and earlier than originally thought.

TheABC · 14/03/2020 11:13

||www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/coronavirus-testing-nancy-pelosi-donald-trump-paid-family-leave-a9401841.html||

This was interesting. Free testing, even if you don't have cover and sick pay. It's commonsense in Europe, but close to heresy for America. The pandemic threat is forcing change at a dizzying speed.

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