Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: Events...

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2020 10:03

Events have taken over. EU / UK negotiation have been put on ice due to covid-19.

The US has banned all travel from Europe - apart from to the uk and Ireland - in a manner which is highly political to drive wedges.

The effects of leaving the European Medicines Agency may be much more serious than anyone could have anticipated.

There's a oil price war going on between Saudi Arabia and Russia which has further driven market fears led by covid-19.

There the crisis in Turkey with Syrian refugees which is also distracting the EU.

We are facing lockdown and economic turmoil over the next weeks and months.

Johnson is having his leadership moment with deaths projected to possibly exceed UK WW2 deaths.

We are desperately trying to recruit negotiators as it's suddenly become apparent we don't have enough to carry out all the trade deals we want.

The civil service will be stretched to its limited by covid-19. Yet we also have Brexit to consider.

Where next? How bad are things going to get?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
Mistigri · 14/03/2020 08:23

Also. When U.K. government says science-based policy, then mean that they are doing politics in such a way that politicians get the credit for any successes and scientists get the blame for any fuck ups.

Other countries have science too.

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2020 08:25

Just posted this on the covid-19 thread. Long boring but I think important to consider

Matt Chorley @mattchorley
NEW: YouGov poll published by @thetimes reveals sharp jump in % who are "scared" about getting coronavirus, up from 24% two weeks ago to 38% in poll carried out since just before PM's press conference yesterday
More here t.co/GF2MDBj0L3

[rtb: since the press conference the consensus I've seen is the mood has changed further and people are even more scared]

New @YouGov poll also shows how much we are changing behaviour. With handwashing doubling (though still only to 61%) and more avoiding touching things in public, crowds, and tourists

55% back the government approach BUT it is getting more partisan:
Backing among Tories and Leavers is up, but down among Labour voters and Remainers
The culture war is still with us, apparently

James Morris @jamesdmorris
This is bad news. We don’t want behaviour change to be governed by political identity. The strategy decisions contain value judgments not just descriptive science, but we have to take partisanship out as much as possible

I think this is a really important thread and the politics about it are worth discussing - from a scientific point of view.

Firstly in any crisis of this scale having public trust is very important. It affects behaviour.

The government is heavily leaning and relying on behavioural science as part of its strategy. So trust as part of that is relevant.

We've already established that fear is an important part of behavial science and getting people to do things.

Why is the culture war relevant to covid-19?

We have two broad camps which have completely different outlooks on life. Most people are generally either in one camp or the other to a greater or lesser extent. For our national response to covid-19 to be successful Johnson needs to manage both camps and get both camps doing the right thing.

I'm going to term this as the 'Pro-government' camp and the 'government sceptic camp' rather than use other labels because I think it's better to do that rather than be more partisan at this stage.

In terms of behavial science, you would expect each group to behave in different ways.

The pro-government group think the government is doing the right thing and will largely follow what messages are put out because they have have levels of trust. They will do what they are told when they are told and think the government is doing the right things at the right time and there is no need to go beyond that. They are essentially state led who will take the least action until instructed not to.

Then you have the government sceptics. This group doesn't trust the government. They are more fearful as a result. They think the government should do more and are frustrated they aren't. Many will be trying to go beyond the current government recommendations where they can and will be acting independently to take action to limit social interaction without government prompting.

Now as much as I'm not a fan of Johnson, he has a good grasp of behavial science perhaps more than other politicians have. Both in the UK and abroad. Elections are all about political communication and behavioral science. And whether I like it or not, he has been more successful at it then others. I don't have to like him to know this. The failure of government sceptic leaders in the last few years is an inability to understand what motives people who arent like them and have been left completely baffled with behaviour and ideas that don't find their world view. Johnson to a certain extent understand both camps better even if its for his own personal advantage.

The pro government camp Trust Johnson but aren't really big on the whole apocalypse thing. They won't change behaviour unless they think it necessary and important. They are resistant to change. They have to be brought along slowly otherwise they will just throw up hands and refuse to comply or even be deliberately obstructive. Trust in Johnson is a massive deal here.

The flip of that is that the government sceptics more driven by fear and acting independently are initially doing more to stop the spread because they are proactive. The more fear and lack of trust, the more strongly they react. This is in terms of protesting online and actually changing behaviour. They are people who are happy and more open to change.

I think my point here is that both camps are important because you can't get away from the reality of the range in people being hostile to change through to those who embrace change. This is part of basic management principles on introducing change. You have to bring along the resistors as much as encourage the enthusiatic supporters of change.

In reality what this means is if you are a government sceptic who doesn't trust Johnson that's fine. You are being managed by fear anyway. The more tricky group to manage are actually the ones who trust Johnson because they are more resistant to change. If Johnson loses their trust that could be a problem further down the line. Johnson really can only ramp things up at a certain pace to keep the change resistors on board.

As a footnote to this, it's worth noting that in Hong Kong self regulated behaviour which has largely been put down to fear of a repeat of SARS has been thought to be a factor which has massively reduced infection rates there. They had already been trained in changing behaviour so didn't need to be managed in the same way.

In the UK the example of Hong Kong and the important of self regulated behaviour not needing to be enforced by authority primarily, could mean that in theory your political views could make a difference because they are affecting the way you behave.

Anxiety (or hysteria as it has been characterised by some) is an raw instinct based on survival. Fear as a driver is important.

Final footnote on this. The culture war is even more pronounced and more important to the US. Even more so because they have an upcoming election. Partisanship is normally much higher in the US and Trump is the king of partisanship. But up till about two days ago he wasn't remotely looking at behavioral science nor considering electoral impact. There is a big difference between how things are playing out in the US and here. Trumps 'insane' tweets about praying aren't crazy though. The penny has just dropped over there that actually Covid-19 is a problem for Trump. He has to lead the Christian right groups and appeal to things they understand to get the trust thing going so he can bring them along. Healthcare will be the defining thing of the US election and Trump has been caught off guard with it. He isnt leading the narrative. Trump talking about God, therefore isn't as nuts as its sounds. It represents the fact he's starting to try and manage one of his tribes that support him (the other tribes are the nationalists and the ultra neoliberalism business elite with a certain amount of overlap between the 3 tribes).

Anyone who think politics isn't important with reference to covid-19 doesn't understand how management of the disease is all about political communication.

Does this explain the difference between the WHO approach and the UK government approach. Quite probably. Is it a better approach which will be more successful in the long run? That's a different question. The issue is time or rather a lack of it. The behavioral science approach needs time to implement successfully. Whether we have the time to do that before so many people are infected that the health service becomes overwhelmed is another matter. It's questionable tbh.

I hope that this might explain a little of the friction of disagreements along the lines of politics or the idea of 'hysteria'.

Westminstenders: Events...
Westminstenders: Events...
Westminstenders: Events...
OP posts:
DGRossetti · 14/03/2020 08:31

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1255078/Coronavirus-latest-updates-youngest-victim-new-born-baby-London

Whilst everything RTB wrote makes sense, there's an additional complication at play (seen on the CV forum on MN) where parental (but basically maternal) instincts are in play in a way that wasn't so immediate for Brexit or the election.

HenHarrier · 14/03/2020 08:37

R4 this morning says half the population is going to contract it.

On my calculations that's over half a million dead.

Depends on what the actual mortality rate will be in the UK though? The South Korea rate is 0.85%, lower than elsewhere because they have tested so many people, including mild and asymptomatic cases.

Had a meeting a few days ago with an NHS emergency planner who is convinced that the virus was circulating in the UK from around Christmas onwards and that there are likely to be thousands of people who have had / currently have covid-19 that haven’t been caught by the UK’s more limited testing.

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2020 08:48

Whilst everything RTB wrote makes sense, there's an additional complication at play (seen on the CV forum on MN) where parental (but basically maternal) instincts are in play in a way that wasn't so immediate for Brexit or the election

I very much agree with that.

I think it will be untenable to keep the schools open for much longer with that in mind.

The idea of forcing the schools to stay out, won't work unless it's in the context of effectively being a babysitter for key workers.

Everyone I've spoken to in the last couple of days is of the opinion that schools will close at the end of next week. That's coming from parents, teachers and people who have been told by doctors.

The expectation is that the schools will close even if that's massively inconvenient.

If they don't, I think people will just start pulling kids out anyway tbh.

One parent in my sons class chat already has (she has serious health issues). I know of another family with 3 kids. Two are home schooled but the one who does go to school has a very serious health condition. The mother has left the father, as he works in a customer facing roll, to go to her mother's with the kids to self isolate.

At least 3 other parents in my sons class chat are seriously considering pulling their kids from school too.

As soon as the bodies start piling up (I think we are scheduled for this to start happening at the end of next week) I think it will just happen as parents will pull kids and there will be a domino effect.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 14/03/2020 08:50

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1255083/uk-coronavirus-british-scientists-vaccine-coronavirus-cure-latest

BRITISH scientists are on the brink of developing a vaccine to combat deadly coronavirus. The first results from tests on animals have shown the medication they are working on is behaving exactly as the scientists hoped it would.

The problem is it's The Express. So highly unlikely to be anywhere near the truth ...

Sostenueto · 14/03/2020 08:54

yoikes you have to isolate ALL your family not just your DC if someone in your household have symptoms.

HenHarrier · 14/03/2020 08:59

you have to isolate ALL your family not just your DC if someone in your household have symptoms.

That’s not the current advice.

Sostenueto · 14/03/2020 09:01

They cannot shut schools yet. Not every pupil has access to the internet gcses so they won't be able to do online learning, and A levels and gcses are 10 weeks away and finishing teaching the contents of them is not finished. It will be utterly unfair in that case to hold exams at all. That also is not feasible because of uni places. So before anyone thinks closing schools now is a good idea it's not!!! Also many schools have children relying on a hot meal. What is going to happen to them if school closed now? It is the vunerable, disadvantaged that will suffer the most with school closures and we need to keep ALL workers at work for as long as possible to keep the country going. If the selfish people who still insist on travelling were to not travel or in dilate themselves and their families on return that will help no end to stop the spread.

Sostenueto · 14/03/2020 09:01

Yes it is Heni

Mistigri · 14/03/2020 09:01

That’s not the current advice.

Current advice seems to be based on the assumption that the virus is mainly spread by symptomatic people, but there's now some published evidence that there is a window of asymptomatic transmission.

yoikes · 14/03/2020 09:02

Bugger.
Thanks sos
Well, needs must.
It's just his hay fever kicking in, but can't be too careful.
It's interesting that some think covid-19 was circulating before xmas...
Dh was in China in November.
Ds1 was really poorly up to and over xmas/new year with a cough (not dry though...)
Dh feels that there were cases in china pre december

Sostenueto · 14/03/2020 09:02

It would be pointless to isolate just one member of family who has it. That is why they dropped it from 14 days to 7.

yoikes · 14/03/2020 09:03

Thats just his feeling though. No proof.

Mistigri · 14/03/2020 09:04

Sostenueto - there are downsides to closing schools but

  • you CANNOT minimise disruption to daily life and also minimise deaths

You have to make hard choices (and mitigate where possible).

Sostenueto · 14/03/2020 09:05

Isolate themselves not dilate😄

HenHarrier · 14/03/2020 09:06

@Sostenueto

It really isn’t - only people with a continuous cough and/or fever are asked to self-isolate, not the whole household:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-stay-at-home-guidance/stay-at-home-guidance-for-people-with-confirmed-or-possible-coronavirus-covid-19-infection

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2020 09:10

Sostenueto do you think exams will go ahead in May? Lots of kids will be ill and will miss anyway if they are under quarantine rules. It will be the peak of the outbreak. There will be staff shortages. I think they will be delayed anyway.

School dinners is another issue entirely which I do think an issue.

But events will take over and very scared parents will remove kids even if it means they will go hungry.

COVID-19 is the runaway train that is out of control and the government can not control the narrative of once it gets some speed up. The government can only respond at that point.

OP posts:
Sostenueto · 14/03/2020 09:12

Yes mistigirl your right but in so doing you have to consider ALL the population and judge whose lives will be disrupted the most. If you are lucky to be able to work from home then that's great for you but you are the minority. If you have access to Internet then you must realise there are thousands that don't. Not only hospital workers but healthcare workers will not be able to work if schools close. Who is going to look after those very vunerable people who are more likely to due if the virus anyway? What they should have done was stop ALL travel abroad from the very first case here. My dds work is now 3 staff down as they have come back from Italy, Spain and her works have said they are not allowed back to work for a fortnight because of the vunerable adults they look after. My DD now has to do at least 60 hours each week till they are back because they were short staffed anyway before Covid. So I still say schools not to close until us really really utterly necessary and it is not yet!

ClashCityRocker · 14/03/2020 09:13

My understanding of the official advice is that other members of the household do not need to self isolate yet, but will be asked to further down the line.

Seem pretty daft to me, but that's certainly what Johnson said in the press conference.

Sostenueto · 14/03/2020 09:14

If the schools shut dds work will be another 7-9 staff short because they won't be able to get childcare leaving no one to look after 6 severely autistic young adults!!!

Sostenueto · 14/03/2020 09:17

I think that the government is relying on people to use some common sense. If one member of household has symptoms it's obvious all if you are in danger of contracting it because it's highly contagious. So perhaps the useless government hope people realise that and do it voluntarily.

ClashCityRocker · 14/03/2020 09:18

I think schools will need to stay open to some extent, if only to ensure those in essential services can work for those reasons, sos.

I believe that's what they've done in Germany? BCF will know.

ClashCityRocker · 14/03/2020 09:20

Yes - tbf I'm self-isolating at the minute and Dh has also arranged to work from home just in case - as if I do have it, I'm sure he will too.

Thank god we got an online shop delivered. I don't know how we'd have coped otherwise.

Sostenueto · 14/03/2020 09:22

It's time the community started being responsible for themselves. Does the government really have to pass laws and enforce people not to travel to countries with Covid, isolate whole family if one has symptoms, follow hand washing and gel use advice etc? Surely this is common sense and we should all be thinking of the wider community. But given the selfish me me society we live in that maybe too much to ask....