The Fish and Fin

[HateIsNotGood]

Welcome to The Fish and Fin - a thread dedicated to the current Brexit negotiations that pit Fishing and Finance against each other...

I have created a Premises Sign - the premises have many different rooms - a structure where variations of debates can be undertaken.

I will next post the Room Names - such as Artists Corner (memes, etc), History Channel (for all the older info that has gone before), The Ring ( for 1:1 debates) The Library etc.

My own support is for Fishing, basically because we are an Island surrounded on all sides by Sea - fish is a very important commodity for the UK.

Yes it currently is a very insignificant % of GDP but does that make it insignificant - from a socio-economic perspective, from the many deprived coastal communities affected by many things, including fishing. Isn't it best to focus some attention on what can be achieved for these communities with the resources that are already available, rather than those that might be.

Sustainability and Environmental Protection - very, very important and more easily managed if the majority of fish caught were landed at UK Ports.

Yeah but who sold or their Quota then? - I'm sure there's many that regret doing so, in retrospect. However, given Fishing is one of the most dangerous professions - given the choice of sending more Fathers and Sons out to their possible deaths or we 'could cash out now lads' - I couldn't be sure what choice I'd make.

Anyway, I'll post my Thread Structure Idea next.

fish is a very important commodity for the UK
Having just had steamed trout for supper I agree
but I also disagree that it should be a factor in trade haggling [smile}

Thread Structure - so we don't bore anybody with our own methods of communicating info that some might dislike, or endless arguing between posters that bore a lot of us, I've created a Draft Method.

Given we can't do sub-threads on MN - within the Fish and Fin Thread we can preface our posts with a Room Name. So,

I posted my thoughts on where the UK quota went - History Channel.

I might state that 60% of Fish caught in UK waters are caught by EU Boats and that 40% of the EU Catch are from UK waters in the thread (Open Area) but would put the links in the Library.

If I could do tiny writing it would be on the back of a fag packet...

I completely agree LQ - linking Fishing and the Finance sector is a 'low blow' - but it is a trading technique - so much as I don't like it, I',m prepared to argue/debate/support this one from the get go.

There will be many more situations to negotiate too.

But here in the MN World I think we need to re-organize ourselves into allowing discussion structures that aren't subject to 'critical mass' shutdowns.

It's just an idea I'm putting out there - see how it goes.

The fishing debate as far are leavers are concerned is very significant in their thinking towards sovereignty and gaining control and has little to do with how much the industry adds to the economy currently. It's also very relevant for the 'left behind', so many of whom live in costal areas.
However we do have a problem with the industry in that we don't tend to eat much of what is caught in our waters and our main market is the EU, so how we square that could be a difficult one bar us all trying fish we don't normally eat!

I have said this before - we need some clever marketing.
Squid tubes - urgh, Calamares - a delightful reminder of a summer holiday.

Sushi? Raw Fish? Who on earth would have thought 30 years ago that would become popular?

Given the real time importance of fishing to many EU countries, falling fish stocks and the UK reliance on services to our economy, i think the negotiations will require a lot of compromise from the UK side.

Apparently only 20 boats operate out of Grimsby but 1000s are employed in fish processing industry, many of whom are EU nationals.
So if we banned Eu boats, who will supply these factories as there aren't the locals who either want to or are able to be deepsea fisherman... and no boats!

If farmers can be paid to conserve the countryside & be subsidised for food production, why can't fishing communities be paid to conserve fishing stocks?

Absolutely crackpot delusional grievance based on the idea that the fish have blue passports and all swim on the left.

Dover sole is not a home address.

If chicken (chlorinated from USA?) & hormone filled beef (Brazil & Argentina?) are cheaper sources of protein, then weird-fish-Brits-aren't-used-to-eating hasn't a chance becoming profitable, especially without generous state subsidies... which I thought Tories generally opposed.

Not that I know numbers... but I wondered if MUCH
more wages are directly dependent on fin sector
more wages are indirectly dependent on fin sector
more taxes are paid from fin sector

Couldn't the Swiss take over all the fin functions of the city of London?
So the fish sector has advantage of being irreplaceable.

Could glass bottom boats exploring the coral reefs of Cromer replace the fishing industry income?

Nothing wierd or odd about coley, polloack, whiting and hake, but they are traditionally disdained and written off as 'cat-food' in favour of haddock in the north and cod in the south, the latter of which has long been almost totally fished out in UK waters.

The Australians had a similar attitude to their locally caught species but are now happy to have barramundi or hoki and chips.

Maybe if Newquay spaceport gets off the ground, literally, we could start lobbing our sea urchins and whelks at the Japanese market for a tidy sum?

Aussie wild-caught Barramundi production seems to have had some tough times.

A selection of goods points posted here. I'm having a lazy Sunday so not up for researching and providing links (for The Library) today but on
R4 yesterday morning where this fish vs fin issue was discussed I did agree somewhat the statement that the UK Financial sector was big enough to look after itself and that UK Fishing concessions needn't be made to make things easier for the Fins.

My breakfast kipper (proper one, not filleted) was delicious ....
proper English fish
of the sort that most people are too fussy to eat
their loss

Good afternoon, Hate, I think it's an intriguing way to encourage respectful and healthy debate but I fear that the fish and fin angle might be akin to comparing apples and pears.

Financial services are a significant contributor to our GDP, of course, whereas fishing is a small but emotive, and symbolic, industry. They press different buttons.

Im sorry I cannot offer more on the subject just now - I'm having a bit of a break due to some RL family issues but I wish you well.

Strange because before the collapse in Herring stocks, caused by overfishing, before the CFP was even thought off, Herring was a popular fish for the british, but as stocks have recovered (due to EEC banning fishing for them) it is now only the Scandinavians who eat them in great numbers.

We had control of fish stocks in the 50s and 60s and look what we did with that?

People 'forgot' about herrings, which tended to be usurped by the upstart farmed salmon.

Possibly also people remember the bloater and recoiled at the thought that people ate them.

Well, I never knew that a bloater was a herring. I thought it was a completely different fish. The name isn't exactly appealing, is it?

Did the first skirmish in the future fish wars tell us a lot about how this is going to play out? (The recent Guernsey fishing licence spat).

French fishermen stopped Guernsey boats from landing their catch, fish rotted and it took about 48 hours for a u-turn to occur.

While the British eat fish caught elsewhere, and British fishermen export home-caught fish to the EU for processing, the U.K. is over a barrel on this particular issue.

Apologies to all for being a lazy OP - but thank you to all who have posted so far - I think we've got a reasonable range of perspectives for some good starting points and foundations for debate on this subject.

Back tomorrow..

I guess I'm lucky,
I happen to like razor clams, whelks, cockles, mackerel and herring

but from the Fin side of it
as an Economist subscriber I have great sympathy with the EU in wanting to take on the rentier economy that is the whole financial trading market
eg
if your whole portfolio is in passive machine traded funds WTF are you paying 2% of its value to a manager for?
High frequency trading has nothing to do with adding value
and everything to do with generating fees

the words a broker hates most are hold until I say
the whole business model is based on creating volatility where there is none

so actually the UKs financial wealth is as transient as a herring shoal that swims away

I've taken notes on all the points raised - besides kippers (one of my favourite foods) - we can roll-mop them too.

Some really great ideas coming forwards -

clever marketing to increase acceptance of local species as edibly desirable,

glass-bottom boats to 'sightsee' the Cromer Shoals (chalk reefs),

pay environmental subsidies to fishing/coastal communities to ensure sustainable fishing (similar to current CAP agri-payments).

The UK/London's Financial Services could move to Switzerland

Anyway - this Fishing vs Fin thing was in the news again yesterday, apparently part of the EU's proposed amendments to the 'framework' for negotiation. I also understand that it's not just Fishing linked to Fin but that 'now all things are linked.'

I did a quick search around for links for the Library but didn't save any (too much RL to do) but as part of this 'opening gambit' by the EU, Gibraltar may be left out of things. But then, as all things are linked, that might only be a temporary thing

Anyway - it will prove quite interesting in the coming months - really only about 6 of the 27 EU Members are much concerned with the UK Fishing Waters, so the EU don't have full-member strength to support a strong a position on this.

Anyone who has been to northern france will appreciate the importance of fishing to their communities, given how strident the French can be, i would imagine it could be a deal breaker for the french and possibly other nations too i.e. Holland Denmark Spain.
The Germans have a significant North sea coastline too.

I really do think if the UK wants a deal, it will need to move on fishing.

clever marketing to increase acceptance of local species as edibly desirable,

The problem is that this takes time. Fishermen who can't land their catch in EU ports will go out of business long before this happens.

Yes the UK may/will have to 'move' on Fishing - if the UK starting 'stance' is to state zero 'rights' to UK Waters then there's quite a lot of compromise/moving room from that point.

Given the stated appreciation of fishing to those countries with a 'coastline' as part of their 'border' - then an appreciation of the importance of fishing to a country whose entire border is geographically identified as a coastline - becomes easier to state.

Never mind the GDP of Fishing as a UK%, how does this compare to the GDP% of each EU country and the total EU %? Not too much really and even smaller if you just use the 'contested' UK Waters only.

Excuse the pun, but the majority of the EU 27 might have bigger fish to fry.

Clever marketing might take time - as well it might - it was peregrinas suggestion, but worthy of noting. Such as is your 'marketing/time' point too Misti.

However, not all decisions are made based on clever advertising and marketing, whilst that bloated industry would like to advise differently whilst shifting your money their way for the privilege.

As an economist Misti you already know that - otherwise you'ld be a 'marketer' instead as there'd be no need for economists if we just listened to the marketers would there?

otherwise you'ld be a 'marketer' instead as there'd be no need for economists if we just listened to the marketers would there?

I've got no idea what this is supposed to mean.

It would be a good thing if people took to eating more locally produced food, including locally caught shellfish and sea fish. But changing people's habits is hard and it typically takes time and a big marketing budget, or some sort of strong incentive (like a big price differential, or legal compulsion).

The problem for the fishing industry is that time isn't on their side, because there are now only 10 months until EU ports are potentially closed to U.K. boats.

I'm afraid that leave voting fishermen have been done up like a kipper, a bit like the DUP.