The Fish and Fin

[HateIsNotGood]

Welcome to The Fish and Fin - a thread dedicated to the current Brexit negotiations that pit Fishing and Finance against each other...

I have created a Premises Sign - the premises have many different rooms - a structure where variations of debates can be undertaken.

I will next post the Room Names - such as Artists Corner (memes, etc), History Channel (for all the older info that has gone before), The Ring ( for 1:1 debates) The Library etc.

My own support is for Fishing, basically because we are an Island surrounded on all sides by Sea - fish is a very important commodity for the UK.

Yes it currently is a very insignificant % of GDP but does that make it insignificant - from a socio-economic perspective, from the many deprived coastal communities affected by many things, including fishing. Isn't it best to focus some attention on what can be achieved for these communities with the resources that are already available, rather than those that might be.

Sustainability and Environmental Protection - very, very important and more easily managed if the majority of fish caught were landed at UK Ports.

Yeah but who sold or their Quota then? - I'm sure there's many that regret doing so, in retrospect. However, given Fishing is one of the most dangerous professions - given the choice of sending more Fathers and Sons out to their possible deaths or we 'could cash out now lads' - I couldn't be sure what choice I'd make.

Anyway, I'll post my Thread Structure Idea next.

It will be interesting to see how the fishing debate plays out, because it has been mutually beneficial to the UK and Spain and Portugal in particular, with them taking most of the catch from our waters.

At the same time, with global warming, fish stocks have been moving into different waters, so there is a good argument for reexamining and revising the quotas. Sadly though, it needs to be done in a spirit of co-operation, not the belligerence that we have seen from the Brexiters.

Picking a fight over fishing makes absolutely no sense, but then very little about this process has been rational.

I can see room for leverage on the fishing industry - The EU wants access for vessels to be fixed. The UK wants annual agreements. I can't see that the UK really would want to negotiate annually - no sooner had one agreement been reached then they would need to start on the next, but we will let that pass. A sensible compromise would be a five year agreement. I haven't seen much sense from the current Government though.

The French trawlers are well-known for their moderate and reasonable approach to negotiations and so there will be no blockading of Calais.

I think the one firm guarantee in this process is that feet will be held to the fire by French fishermen and port workers.

As has already happened in early February over fishing rights in Guernsey.

Would be silly to prioritise fishing over fin, fish stocks are declining and if we want to keep what we have, need international co-op.

so no good one nation preserving a species in summer if another fishes them out in winter as the fish have moved to their warmer waters or vice versa.

I suggest a new CFP based on preservation rather than catches, ultimately, farmed fish is the only sustainable form of fishing.

Luke Pollard Labour MP for Plymouth highlights the damage to fishers from the Gvt red tape app. Nice kick in the fins from the fat liar in the white coat

Evening all - again, all points taken on board here - my opinion/take on the current Fish vs Fin debate is that it is rather unfortunate that these two separate 'spheres' have been put together as 'points' to be argued/debated/negotiated between each other.

I would prefer that these were considered as completely separate issues to be 'agreed' before being put forwards separately into the 'whole' - but I'm just a bystander, as most of us are.

Pitting one 'interest' against another completely separate 'interest' is a technique called 'log-rolling' - however since I started this post, the EU have since stated "that all things are linked".

Which indeed they are and this perspective follows the 'corporatist' structure of EU decision-making; which is a fine and dandy method of making decisions but unfortunately rather slow.

Given there is a time-limit on reaching some agreements and 'schedules' of agreements by the end of this year, then an alternative approach to reaching agreements by both 'parties' needs to be found.

Anyways - Fishing is an area I'm interested in, and others too, not so much Fin. Whilst I am acting like a Woman of Excuses - it's Feb, I'm a bit run down, ill-ish, with lots of RL going on too - but all is in hand and I'll get the Library up and running soon.

Night All - and thx for keeping it civil.

You can't delink separate issues easily because any deal will need to be approved by all of the EU27 and they all have different priorities.

Yes Misti I agree with your above statement - so, probably the best approach is to take each industry/sector/sphere/theme, etc individually, before taking it to to the next level of negotiation. This is far more productive than trying to log-roll 'industries' against each other.

So, in the case of this Thread, I opt to explore Fishing as a separate industry/theme - although i am equally open to others wishing to 'explore' the Finance Industry/Sector here too.

I'm on the mend and catching up - just as long as no more set-backs happen again soon - next time I come here I intend to come bearing links to evidence, facts and clearly-labelled 'opinion' (Fishing Industry related) to stock the Library with.

Meanwhile, if anyone else is interested in the Fishing Industry, please feel free to add your own 'finds' and points to be considered.

An interesting article on sustainability, maybe we are asking the rong questions.
www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/fishing-for-trouble-how-europe-is-losing-money-by-overfishing/

Weren't we lucky to have Nigel Farage MEP as our representative on the EU fishing committee?

He did attend one meeting out of 42 meeting he should have attended so we can be sure he fought for the interests of UK fisherfolk.

Many thanks for the Article jas it looks interesting and I'll give it a read later.

Just popped in to leave this article for the Library too for some initial gentle reading:

unearthed.greenpeace.org/2019/03/07/fishing-brexit-uk-fleetwood/

An illuminating article! Once again UK self inflicted problems blamed on those bloody Europeans.
If we really do have to seek extra quota, then they'll be little brexit dividend for any fishing communities.

Hate
That Greenpeace article is a really good one. Thankyou

I've not really fully read the Articles, and the many more I should read before forming any opinion, but an initial suggestion would be for the UK to 'buy back'/compensate the UK Waters quota held by EU 'owners'.

Non-EU Owners' status to be treated 'differently'.

Once the majority of UK Waters CFP Quota is owned by the UK - a new UK defined system of distributing 'uk quota' based on a different set of values can be formed. Based on criteria such as 'local' socio-economic 'value', sustainable fishing (encouraging small-boat fishing) - and Maybe things like 'New Entrant to Fishing aged under 40' - I recall applying for, and being awarded, some Suckler Cow and Sheep Quota in the 1990s as a New Entrant to Farming.

Just suggestions.

You need to read the articles.

The bulk of Scotland's quota is owned by one family who were convicted of fraud about their catch levels.

All of the small fishing boats (

Hmm, LQ - maybes - although my 'skimming' didn't quite produce the same conclusions as yourself' and so far I'm not well-read enough to reach any set conclusions yet.

My suggestions in my pp were based on forward thinking - after the UK invovement in the EU CFP has been scrapped - what he UK might replace it with.

Undoubtedly over 55% of the UK catch is by Scottish Fishermen so if any UK-based fishing fraud is committed there's a good chance that someone Scottish might be involved.

However, in regards to the EU "black catch" (illegal landings of fish ref Unearthed Article) the UK appears to be/has been one of the most 'law-abiding' member states.

Anyways, hope the beef and barley stew worked out, i'm back to the grindstone for now.

Follow the link to the actual owners of the quotas
and then the one to the fraud case
and the Spanish trawler with the west African crew
follow the money

What I wonder is, since the UK owners sold out willingly to the other EU countries, are they going to be so keen to buy the boats and quotas back? I would strongly suspect not.

Just thought I'd pop in to say hello and that as soon as I finish some 'interminably boring' work I will thoroughly read the articles and find and read some more.

Posters are raising a lot of good points and I want to read around these some more before I re-enter this debate, meanwhile please do continue and provide any informative reading - and thanks to all again for adding to this thread in the spirit that was intended.

Just read Jas's article and I absolutely agree that overfishing is a big problem and also think that the CFP is not good for sustainable fishing. The article mentioned that the Med doesn't have quota fishing. Gobsmacked at that, if it's true, because it needs to be.

My suggestions so far:

Abolish 'historical catches' as the mechanism for distributing quota. Initially suggested for UK Waters but also for EU and Worldwide Waters too.

Quota to be directly linked to sustainable fishing, as advised by Marine Biologists.

UK Govt low/no interest loans to be available for 'new starters' in the Fishing Industry so they can buy the boats and equipment to Fish.

To encourage small-boat fishing in UK Local Waters.

Govt Grants to enable existing land-side fish industries to employ and/or train up their local workforce.

That those that bought quota on the existing 'historical catch' basis will need compensating.

So we export 95% of our fish to the EU.

Even Jimmy Buchan has come to realise what a shit show they are about to get.

Looking at the idiots in Whitehall and the idiot who sat on the EU fisheries board repressing Uk interests and never turned up - Mr N Farage we’re looking at you. Are fishery’s are fucked. But good thing is they voted for this shit show.

Catch as much fish as you like but if you’ve no where to sell it, it’s a bit pointless.

www.thenational.scot/news/18250816.brexit-backing-skipper-ready-back-snps-migration-plans-will-catastrophic-warns-skipper/

Quite a lot of good suggestions HateIs, but the time to have done all those was 40 years ago. The writing was on the wall with the Cod wars with Iceland.

We need to ask ourselves why our boat owners decided to sell out and sell their quotas, along with them.

It's not also that we need to encourage new starters - we need to have an EU deal to protect the current markets.

In short there is not a lot of point making noise now.