Westministenders: Canada Plus and the Transition Phase

[RedToothBrush]

As we approach the 31st January, we slowly tick towards exit and transition.

Things are not yet signed off though the No Deal planning has quietly been stood down with no press release and the government have said they won't talk about trade deals post 31st Jan because the public are bored of them and don't understand.

The new EU president has said that the UK doesn't have time to make a full deal with the EU before 31st December with a deadline which isn't flexible.

We still have no idea what the government plans are. We still have many EU citizens feeling very vulnerable.

Perhaps we should start talking about this rather than Royals for a couple of weeks...

The aim of subsidies (done properly) is to enable economies of scale and to drive down future prices.

You know that moment when you suddenly realise you have provided your opponents answer ? Parentheses or not ?

I find you very antagonistic DGR. It's possible to argue a point without being an arse.

You need economies of scale for new technologies to get a foothold.

One of the reasons for subsidies is so that they can compete on a level playing field. The cost of older technologies is often depressed by the fact that we have got into the habit of requiring consumers, workers and governments to pay the social and environmental costs of those technologies.

I find you very antagonistic DGR. It's possible to argue a point without being an arse.

Oh get a grip and read what I said. I was actually agreeing with you. You asserted that subsidies can be used to grow fledging industries against the backdrop of competing economic drivers. WHICH I AGREE WITH.

You also said "done properly" which I agree with.

I guess if you believe most subsidies around renewable energy in the UK were done properly then we are disagreeing.

I'm as guilty as anyone else of having an entrenched view sometimes. But I try really hard to bear it in mind.

Even in the U.K., and even after taking into account the carbon consumed in manufacturing the panels, you're looking at a saving of about 1 tonne of CO2 a year for a domestic installation (for panels correctly installed in a suitable location).

Ironically the argument for domestic PV solar here in France is probably weaker (because of the low CO2 intensity of the grid), even though the generating conditions are better.

Thanks, yolofish. It is an odd feeling, but it'll pass...

All this talk about car batteries - shouldn't we be worried about where the resources are coming from to make the batteries? Where is the cobalt being mined (much of it from the Congo and using child labour)? And lithium? There was some talk of mining the deep ocean floor for cobalt. I can only imagine that will have a negative impact on life at that depth. Plus the huge amount of recycling that will be needed - are we ready for that yet?

Bottom line is, aren't we just pillaging our planet even further, just with different materials this time?

www.ft.com/content/3b72645a-91cc-11e8-bb8f-a6a2f7bca546

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02242-y

Bottom line is, aren't we just pillaging our planet even further, just with different materials this time?

yup.

And it's orders of magnitude worse for increasing developed world populations than less developed populations. (Best keep that to yourself though).

Geothermal can work
without subsidies
in the south of England
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southampton_District_Energy_Scheme

Geothermal can work without subsidies in the south of England

That article isn't clear where the profits go.

DGR
The Southampton scheme is owned by the Council.
It is effectively a non profit
it provides non carbon heating to much of the city centre
including all of the council buildings which which would otherwise be paying out to other companies

Here is a link to the operators page ...
www.engie.co.uk/about-us/references/southampton-district-energy-scheme/

DGR The Southampton scheme is owned by the Council. It is effectively a non profit-

I just checked a bit more - it was rescued from closure by the council by the then leader who is now MP for Southampton.
It is operated by a company whose UK tax policies are pretty cool

*All this talk about car batteries - shouldn't we be worried about where the resources are coming from to make the batteries? Where is the cobalt being mined (much of it from the Congo and using child labour)? And lithium?

Bottom line is, aren't we just pillaging our planet even further, just with different materials this time?*

Petrol and diesel cars also use valuable and scarce resources (go check out a graph of the rhodium price). For battery vehicles, cobalt is particularly problematic.

Bottom line is that if you don't want big companies to mine for these minerals then you need to make sacrifices. I don't drive and I try not to fly, because I know quite a lot about where minerals come from and what mining, processing and burning them does to the planet.

(That was a generic you, not a personal you by the way. We all need to make sacrifices when it comes to personal mobility, but - as with Brexit - many people want to have their cake and eat it).

Geothermal can work without subsidies in the south of England

Sort of. Geothermal makes up about 12% of the heat supplied from the CHP plant (the rest is from conventional boilers).

That article isn't clear where the profits go.

So go look it up in Companies House.

That article isn't clear where the profits go. So go look it up in Companies House.

You know the old trope about humour not working on the internet ?

Well I do ....

Continuity
The cool (in all senses) thing about the Geothermal scheme is that it provides building COOLING in summer through the heat exchangers.

And its not just the actual carbon side, its the saving to the taxpayer that is a bonus.

As with all things environmental, its about closing loops.

Its why I'm still so concerned about Brexit - working in an integrated and concerted way with other countries is the only way to effect the changes to prevent runaway damage
but Brexit by its very nature interferes with information flows among researchers.

@DGRossetti

Humour not working on the internet? Really? So glad you’ve finally worked that one out.

@ListeningQuietly

I know how it works - I’ve used it as a case study before.

There is little profit generated (about £60k in the last set of accounts) as that isn’t the intention of the project - Engie gets its revenue from the operating side and the Council gets cheaper heating / cooling than from conventional suppliers.

Its why I'm still so concerned about Brexit - working in an integrated and concerted way with other countries is the only way to effect the changes to prevent runaway damage
but Brexit by its very nature interferes with information flows among researchers.

I completely understand this pov. However one of the reasons I voted for Brexit is that all too often inter country co-ordination is an excuse note for lowest common denominator or lip service grand statements backed by inaction. Centralisation also risks widespread unintended adverse consequences at local level.

Even within the UK the best environmental energy policies are different between Scotland and England as are land management and farming policies.

Humour not working on the internet? Really? So glad you’ve finally worked that one out.

That's not funny ....

all too often inter country co-ordination is an excuse note for lowest common denominator or lip service grand statements backed by inaction.
Do you have any evidence to support that in the area of academic research, particularly on climate change?
Centralisation also risks widespread unintended adverse consequences at local level.
Collaboration and centralisation are rather different
as you well know

The environment is one area where working together is not just desirable but vital.

If country A reduces sulphur emissions but country B keeps spewing sulphur into the atmosphere, then no border in the world will ensure that the costs of that pollution fall on the polluting country.

Likewise we need coordination on things like fishing stocks and, of course, carbon.

Ah yes, Fishing.
Across the whole of the EU there are around 120,000 people involved in the fishing industry
according to this week's Economist
yet on the Yangtze river alone there are 280,000

Why on earth is fishing given such importance ?
It generates 1% of the turnover that video games do ....