Poverty and Brexit

[FreeStar]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-2019-50663879/general-election-2019-how-do-grimsby-s-food-bank-users-want-to-vote

Just been watching this video and really don't understand the issues being raised here by these people. Firstly, I don't really get how some people think that Brexit will do anything to solve their issues.

I also don't know how anyone who is destitute thinks voting in a Tory govenment again, led by the likes of Boris Johnson is going to do anything to help them!

Can anyone explain why they think this! In my eyes it's almost 10 years of Conservative rule that has caused the poverty we are now seeing!

It's the million dollar question. I'll be follow with interest as I am totally baffled by this too.

They've been told there would be loads of money if we didn't pay to the EU or pay benefits to people.

It's been drip fed for years and years. People have a weird victim mentality in which the U.K. is both naturally superior AND the underdog. We could be a great nation again, if only they didn't pick on us etc.

It's less scary to think that way than that you're powerless against the 2%.

It is indeed baffling.

Hell mend them, they’ll get exactly what they voted for.

Lies and nonsense drip fed for years in the right wing media. They believe the headlines that money currently going to the EU will be available to spend on improving their lives. Many also believe that immigration will cease and there will be more jobs for locals and less pressure on the NHS and housing etc. I dread to think about what will happen when the promised Brexit unicorn is not delivered and people realise they have been taken for fools.

There must be something else, no one is that stupid.
Sometimes I think it's simply because finding a scapegoat (EU migrants/ migrants in general) provides some short term relief. They want another group to suffer more than they do. It's the darker side of humanity but it happens again and again in times of crisis. It's also why I think xenophobia will get much worse after brexit, contrary to what some leavers argue.
I realise it's a pessimistic view though.

The MP for Grimsby is Labour's Melanie Onn - she backed Boris Johnson's deal. She also has a few answers to your question;

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/melanie-onn-mp-why-i-am-supporting-boriss-brexit-deal

I've been trying to remember a particular term for years, which I read in a journal once many years ago, but regardless of what I do... I can't. The only way I can describe it is "reverse altruism".

We all know what altruism is: we willingly do something that may cost or disadvantage ourselves, just so another being can thrive, giving money to charity. In politics, this may translate to voting for policies that disadvantage us personally, but is 'for the greater good'.

Whatever this term was, it described a scenario whereby people chose to do something that disadvantaged them, but they chose to do it because it disadvantaged others, too.

There's a lot of hate and desperation involved in this scenario. At the extreme end, you can find a suicide bomber (they die, but they hope to kill others, too). The article mentioned a less extreme example, where someone at the very bottom of society who disliked everyone above them, if given the chance, may choose to do something that may harm them if this moves the people 'above them'' a few pegs down. I think some of this did happen during the referendum.

I could understand maybe why some of these people believed Brexit would help them but will admit I was shocked that so many have remained wedded to the idea. It seems obvious it won't help them. I think there's a bit of 'pride' involved and not wanting to lose face by admitting they were wrong. A lot of them think remainers are angry because they 'didn't win' but if it's bad, we all lose! If it seemed like it was going well, remainers would be happy to be wrong. It's also become like a religion/cult. Pinning all their hopes to it in blind faith and not really thinking too deeply into it.

All the poor people I know voted remain and are now either voting Lib Dem or Labour. All the wealthier people I know voted to leave, for lots of different reasons, but immigration was a reoccurring theme.

I don't really understand why anyone would vote for Brexit, but I suppose if you can find a way to profit from it, and you don't care about others, then it might seem quite appealing.

They believe the headlines that money currently going to the EU will be available to spend on improving their lives.

I think ordinary people can only think small. If you hear anything with million or billion in it you think " that's a lot - that would transform my life".

What an everyday person can't contemplate is the enormity. So it's sounds like EU membership costs a lot - but in fact it's a teeny tiny proportion of GDP ( see the chart that I always post).

In return we got unrestricted access to a market on our doorstep worth $18.8 trillion of 500 million consumers.

But it's all too huge for everyone to grasp.

Plus we've been fed a diet of 'it's the EUs fault' without realising that the EU remit is very limited and successive governments l(as in all European and non European countries) retained autonomy. Nearly everything - fiscal policy, health, education, defence, distribution of wealth, social care benefits etc etc is all domestic but that isn't how it's been portrayed.

Sorry trouble posting the chart!

This election is about Brexit. Labour are trying their best to fudge the waters and say it's about the NHS but it isn't. Once this election is over we will be back to talking about Brexit unless/until we withdraw from the EU and then it'll be about the trade negotiations with the EU.
Until we know what situation our economy is going to be in, any talk of spending priorities is just smoke and mirrors.

I can answer your questions, OP, although I don’t actually think you do want an answer - this question has been answered in a myriad of threads since 2016 and will continue to be.

Many people were living in poverty before brexit, or, if not in poverty, were at any rate reliant on state benefits such as tax credits and housing benefits. Many of them did not want to be. Many were aspirational, wished to have the security of their own home and a job that was skilled.

The EU spent money, but for the most part, people were not consulted about what it bought and it brought them little in the way of direct benefit. If you live in a fishing town in the north east and are staunchly working class, Erasmus schemes and freedom of movement aren’t of any benefit or interest to you.

Labour are no longer the party of the working classes. It is misleading to state all conservative policies disadvantage the poor - they don’t. Right to buy, raising the minimum wage, free childcare for parents of toddlers, are all of benefit to the working class. Meanwhile, Labour are not trying to appeal to these people at all. The question isn’t why are they voting conservative. The question is why not.

people were not consulted about what it bought and it brought them little in the way of direct benefit

But this expectation of direct benefits results from a fundamental misunderstanding. The EU was never given power to interfere in individual countries by providing money to say the British or French health system or Spanish or British schools. Contrary to popular belief it had a limited remit.

There was a fund for European Aid to the Most Deprived (FEAD) which aimed to help alleviate the worst forms of poverty in the EU, such as homelessness, child poverty and food deprivation.

Bizarrely, the UK government failed to use its total allocation.

Well said orcaaa

The election is only about brexit if you've swallowed enough propaganda.

The NHS is in crisis it is absolutely right that Labour have been prioritising it as an issue.

If the EU didnt benefit the working class why did working class cities like Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle vote remain? Freedom of movement and erasmus can benefit working class people because they can use these schemes.Right to buy has been a long term disaster for WC people because the social housing stock has been depleted

This chart is just a reminder to fit in with posts above. There always was misleading info about how small a proportion of GDP membership was. There was always a lack of info on the benefits of trade from free trade deals, covering more than 70 countries negotiated over several decades.

I agree orcaaa with what you say. You've only missed the part about what the advantage will be once Brexit has happened. The EU will want a hefty sum from UK gov to have access to the single market and there will be no UK influence over how that gets spent. The people in power in EU and UK will not prioritise the aspirational working poor all of a sudden. I agree people want more control over their own lives and chances. It's not clear at all that Brexit will achieve more control for the general population.

This election is about Brexit

Democracy was preserved. Had Brexit not happened then democracy has failed. Outcome would be mass destruction of the UK as people formed the view that if governments can ignore the electorate then the electorate can ignore the government. Rioting, looting, etc., would have followed.

Saw it several years ago in Madagascar when the capital was trashed and the at the time President, Mark Ravalomanana fled to Swaziland as thousands marched against his palace.

Reason for the rioting was that he had not delivered his promise to reduce poverty by using foreign aid to develop the country, but pocketed it himself.

Hundreds of young people killed as hired mercenaries brought in from South Africa and the Congo let loose with automatic weapons. However, the overwhelming number of protesters eventually overcame the mercenaries and burned them alive.

thelincolnite.co.uk/2016/08/revealed-major-lincolnshire-projects-received-over-22-million-in-eu-funding/

what-europe-does-for-me.eu/en/portal/1/UKE1

The parallels between the UK and Madagascar or between BJ and Marc Ravelomanana are so limited as to make any attempted comparison pointless.

Outcome would be mass destruction of the UK as people formed the view that if governments can ignore the electorate then the electorate can ignore the government. Rioting, looting, etc., would have followed

We've had rioting looting etc in the UK before... indeed, we are pretty much the murder capital of europe, if not the world, right now.
Unless there are benefits to Brexit and little downside, then you can bet your last euro that they'll be rioting, looting, crime etc when people lose their jobs.

Labour have been calling for more help for WC class people, more housing, higher min wage, more childcare, more skills but their msg was swamped with brexit and the general dislike of Corbyn.

I have come late to this thread, and see that Clavinova helpfully pointed out a Labour MP who backed Boris Johnson. Much good it did her, because she lost her seat.

I can't see what the current Tory party can offer people in places like Great Grimsby. An older generation of Tories from the 1950s and 60s maybe? But they are now long gone.

Unless there are benefits to Brexit and little downside, then you can bet your last euro that they'll be rioting, looting, crime etc when people lose their jobs

What a load. People have lost jobs for decades and happily lived off state benefits for most of their lives. I do not remember there ever being a riot that was all composed of unemployed people ?