Misogyny or posturing?

[oreomum]

Why did Johnson (and now Corbyn) think that they can get a better deal than May?

We call it May's Deal but surely it's the same civil servants doing the leg work?

I will not be voting Tory at the election but why are politicians saying that they can do better? Brussels will have their own red lines that they won't cross.

Male ego. She's just a woman so what would she know, a man can always do a better job etc. Misogyny is insidious. There's a fair few on here that didn't support mays deal but now support it regurgitated as bozo's deal. It's depressing how many women have internalised misogyny.

Not misogyny no.

BJ's WA is better than May's but it's still not brilliant

The difference between them as people is that BJ has the arrogance needed to drive change - much like Thatcher

It's not a male/female thing, it's personality & individual differences

Corbyn saying he'll get a better deal is just posturing, safe in opposition he was able to posture to his hearts content
Also, he wants to be part of CU & single market which EU would be cock-a-hoop with (Brexiters would not, but he doesn't care about that)

Johnson's deal was not better than May's deal. The independent economic analysis of it was terrible.

I don't think it's misogyny. She tried to get us to take a shit deal too, just a slightly less shit deal.

There is misogyny in the Conservative campaigning though. That all seems based around Johnson being man enough to take us out the EU and all that shite.

I think the accusation of misogyny could more reasonably be targeted at the Conservative MPs whose red lines were immovable for May's deal but more flexible for Johnson's.

I don't think either Corbyn or Johnson are personally misogynist, or at least not in the way you mean here. Johnson has a gigantic ego which is why he thought he could negotiate a better deal. Corbyn has more flexible red lines which is why he thinks he could get a better one (and in some respects he's right though it depends what you mean by "better").

it depends what you mean by "better"

WRT the specific question re the WA, it is so much about this & very much not about misogyny

From a leavers perspective it's better, from a remain perspective it's worse

I don't think there's any more or any less misogyny in the Tory party than in Labour.

It's all much of a muchness.

In all honesty it really grates on me when people bring sex into things, like Jo Swinson for eg banging the drum about being a 'woman leader' - much like the pregnant woman who thinks they're the first in history to ever carry a baby.

She's conveniently forgotten about all the others before her (every party except Labour actually I think)

Corbyn's red lines are also different from those of Johnson or May.
For one, he's likely to go for a custom's union.

Better or worse depend on one's position on the political spectrum. If you want to deregulate and make shed loads of money for a couple hundred of your mates then you'll think Johnson's deal is better than May's.
If you care for your workers and consumers rights (and much more besides), then you'll campaign to stay as close as possible to the EU.

I didn't think of the obvious point that Corbyn has different red lines.

I thought that independent analysis came to the conclusion that May's deal would see GDP fall by a lesser figure than Johnson's deal (or £2k per person over 15 years) but I guess BJ has no shame since his wealthy friends will sort him out with cushy jobs after he's PM.

I was pondering whether we'd be hearing Prime Ministerial candidates promising to renegotiate the WA/trade agreements with other countries every election cycle. In which case the mythical money promised to the NHS just ends up in the pockets of trade envoys and quangos etc

Corbyn's red lines are still a bit unicorn-tinged, but compared to Johnson/May he would have the advantage of having a parliamentary party that does not on the whole believe in unicorns.

What I can't get my head round is the idea that the EU would waste time agreeing a third deal for us to turn down. What a monumental waste of everyone's time this has turned out to be.

While the EU wants Brexit to disappear as their budget depends on UK contributions, it must be costing them a pretty penny too. If I was from a country like France which has had to pay money for contingency plans etc I'd be pissed off that the uncertainty is still going on.

Fuck knows what people in Ireland and Northern Ireland think. No reassurance from Westminster that they won't be shafted again.

Agree with Dusty. Nothing what so ever to do with May being a woman and the other two men. May was no good at negotiating and BJ is far more hard nosed and prepared to 'try' to stick with limits which only Parliament legislating against it stopped him.

May was no good at negotiating and BJ is far more hard nosed and prepared to 'try' to stick with limits

Are you saying that May's red lines were unacceptable but Johnson's aren't?
To my untrained eye the main difference is having the border in the Irish Sea which is a compromise position as NI won't be as "free" of the EU as the rest of the UK.
By limits do you mean his deadline for completing Brexit or the new red lines that he has?

No oreomum, I'm saying May gave into the EU far too easily and accepted their demand that they would only discuss the WA first and not touch trade until that was complete. We would never be in the position we are in now had she not done that.
She also didn't listen to the leavers in her government and only took advice from the likes of Olly Robbins, that's why her Chequers discussions were so far at odds with the rest of the cabinet, with the exception of PH and AR!

In fact, the only big concession made by the EU in the whole process was the all-U.K. backstop, which was of course in the May WA. This was a big concession that was quite unpopular with many European governments.

Johnson got a deal by conceding (eventually) that if you want a rock-hard Brexit (ie no regulatory or customs alignment) you must have a border either in the Irish Sea or on the island of Ireland.

I agree there is no difference in the negotiating position. We are one country negotiating against 27, we were always in a weak negotiating position even if we had had a decent plan and strategy. Boris is a misogynist but I don’t think that you can put the way May’s deal was treated down to that. May isn’t a saleswoman, she has neither the charisma or intellect to communicate effectively. Boris is a snake oil salesman, and he has a lot of people convinced by going for their hearts rather than their minds. All this business about him playing a stronger hand is just willy waving, all he could ever do was to find a slightly different way through and then brand it as Boris’ magic cure all. He knew and the EU knew no deal would be disastrous for the country, Parliament are just convenient scapegoats against which to sell himself as the defender of “the people” . It’s all smoke and mirrors, but clearly there are plenty of gullible people.

The different reactions are partly driven by May and Johnson’s respective positions.

Johnson led the leave campaign. We all know he’s ideologically “flexible”, shall we say, but he’s publicly tied his colours to the mast in a way he can’t back away from. This means any “soft” deal he gets from the EU is viewed as a tactical choice.

Everyone knew May was a remainer at heart. Her deals were therefore viewed with suspicion, the inference being she was underplaying her hand in order to sabotage the overall aims of Brexit.

No one gave a shit about her gender.

Johnson was much more successful at negotiating with his own party than May, and that probably is down to misogyny (within the party not Johnson personally).

I'm surprised people think misogyny is a bigger factor than the fact May was a known remainer trying to negotiate with the "spartans" of the ERG. They'd have worked just fine with Margaret Thatcher. This is about ideology.

I think it's about a number of things, including misogyny. There are all sorts of other things at play, though, IMO:

• Boris is seen by some as a better orator because he throws a bit of Latin in here and there and the gullible are impressed by his rhetoric. (His speaking skills have been lauded on the pro-Brexit thread where remainer opinion isn't tolerated.) So although his deal was no more convincing than May's, his rhetoric was.
• The more the arguing about Brexit went on, the more the threat of it not happening gained traction. Having voted against TM's deal, I think there was a sense of 'we have to vote for this deal, or Brexit might not happen...' Again, I think this is reflected in the public's attitude, which has shifted from 'We want no deal because TM's Brexit isn't really Brexit...' to 'Our man Boris is bringing Brexit home.' (rousing cheers from all but the Faragist leavers, etc...)
• Brits love an eccentric and will give their 'achievements' credence even when it is not deserved, ergo his deal is 'better'. TM was a bit of a personality vacuum, but Boris is a lovable rogue, isn't he? Can you imagine a serial-shagging, adulterous female MP walking around with uncombed hair and her clothes awry, getting away with conspiring to have a reporter beaten up, writing poems slagging off other world leaders, fucking up things for Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe, etc etc and surviving with her career intact, never mind being elected PM? Behaviour that isn't acceptable for females is tolerated - sometimes even applauded - in men. If that's not misogyny, I don't know what is. He even has a cuddly nickname. What's not to like?

the pro-Brexit thread where remainer opinion isn't tolerated

This is untrue

I really wish honesty could have a place in political discussion

Oh well, a girl can dream...

Le sigh 🙄

This is untrue
Patently not when you (collective you) talk of 'infestations of rodents' 'the vaults getting lively', 'glitterballing' posters and posters only being tolerated if they're not 'twats'. Guess who decides who is a 'twat'? Anyway, I've no intention of turning this into a TAAT, so will not respond to you again.

Ffs.

I've no intention of turning this into a TAAT, so will not respond to you again.

Thank fuck

Small mercies etc

(His speaking skills have been lauded on the pro-Brexit thread where remainer opinion isn't tolerated.)

Allow me to fix this unecessary comment.

“His speaking skills have been lauded on the pro brexit thread.”

That was enough to stop it becoming a taat.

Anyway, I agree with others who have articulated better than I. No misogyny involved. May just didn’t have the skills. Nothing to do with her vagina imo.