Misogyny or posturing?

[oreomum]

Why did Johnson (and now Corbyn) think that they can get a better deal than May?

We call it May's Deal but surely it's the same civil servants doing the leg work?

I will not be voting Tory at the election but why are politicians saying that they can do better? Brussels will have their own red lines that they won't cross.

"Behaviour that isn't acceptable for females is tolerated - sometimes even applauded - in men. If that's not misogyny, I don't know what is"

Equally,

Argh, hit return too soon...

"Behaviour that isn't acceptable for females is tolerated - sometimes even applauded - in men. If that's not misogyny, I don't know what is"

It is true that society has different norms of behavior for the sexes. I think it doesn't automatically follow that this is "sexist" in all cases. There are examples of behaviour that women get away with, that men would not.

Bottom line, though, I hold to Occam's Razor on this - Theresa May had a harder time with the Tory party because she was an unpopular and awkward leader whose core views on Brexit were held as suspicious by much of the parliamentary party.

That is the simplest, and therefore likeliest explanation for her difficulties.

To be fair, I think TM would have been a pretty good PM at any other time

This was not a situation that she had the skillset reqd

Boris got a deal as he lied more.

Boris doesn’t know what deal he has signed the UK up to - yesterday he has declared he will not “implement” or “enact” checks on goods from Northern Ireland to Great Britain despite arrangements for customs controls under the Brexit deal he agreed last month with the EU.

I am interested in the narrative that Mays problem was that she was a remainer. Her actions once the vote was done speak differently, she immediately embraced the hardest of damaging hard red lines, out of anything with even a whiff of the EU even if it wasn’t actually (eg Eurotom) in order to placate the frothing ERGers when she could almost certainly have got a softer less damaging agreement eg Norway + much more quickly and got Parliament and wider support. She did that because she put her party before country, never mind the 48% of Remainers. She divided instead of finding consensus. She may not have had the skills to listen or persuade anyone of anything, not strong, not stable, but it certainly wasn’t because she was a remainer, in fact she hung the remain cause out to dry by sticking with all this will of the people nonsense instead of actually listening.

Facts though? When you are a tribe and you are with us or against us? 🤔

That's a good point about Boris having more support within the party.
He has copied the Trump model of big statements "Do or die" etc and seems to have equally big fans despite his record as London Mayor.

I get that May is pretty boring as a personality and that any WA was going to have negative effects on the economy. She obviously made the big mistake of not discussing the process with enough people- if the ERG was as important to her as the DUP would she have copped less flak from her own party for the WA?

The Tory party voted her as leader so presumably "forgave " her for campaigning Remain. Are the prominent Tories who said before the referendum that the Deal would be the easiest in history and there was no way we'd not get a great one "forgiven" too?

Thatcher by the way would not have tolerated Mark Francois and the other Neanderthal ERGers for more than two seconds. Whatever you say about her she did not tolerate fools gladly, and listened to experts.

Oreomum - I think May's problem wasn't being a remainer, but being a unionist. The point being that ultimately it came down to a straight decision between pleasing the ERG or pleasing the DUP. Neither Johnson nor May could do both. For May, the union was more important; for Johnson, a personal win at all costs was what mattered.

But it may come back to bite him, because if he doesn't get a majority in this election, who is he going to work with to deliver Brexit, if not the DUP?

Totally agreeing with emilyontmoor's posts on this thread, especially the TM was no remainer one.

every party except Labour actually I think

Labour has had two female leaders, Margaret Beckett and Harriet Harman. They were only interim, but they were still party leaders.