Would we have more control if we leave?

[HivesMind]

Please play nicely, folks.

Over on the AA Gill thread, @SingingLily very eloquently wrote about how they'd researched thoroughly and decided we should Leave the EU as we'd stand more chance of controlling our own government and removing them if needed...and about how the EU is not a true democracy. Apologies, my phone is playing up or I would quote directly but if anybody else can, or can summarise Lily's words better, please do.

The OP questioned whether that's really true, as did I. But the OP had already got backs up plus the original thread - Lily pointed out - was about Remainers' attitudes to Leavers, so it was more appropriate to start a new thread. So I'm asking the question here: would we really have more control, or not?

I know it's probably futile to say, but please try to be respectful to each other and non passive aggressive with answers. I totally get how emotive this is for everybody but I genuinely want to hear opinions and that won't happen if people are defensive or scared to speak. Putting my own cards on the table, I'm a Remainer and yes, I'm scared about the situation purely because of my personal set of circumstances BUT I am a Remainer who believes everybody is entitled to an opinion, that all opinions should be respected and that context is everything to how people choose to vote - no one person can see the world through the eyes of another or tell them what's right for them. And unless we shut up and listen we're even less entitled to try. So back to the original question: More control - in or out, and why?

Being in control assumes we have power. I'm not sure, if we leave, that we will have any power, certainly when it comes to trade agreements. We will be in a weaker position trying to negotiate on our own, I think, than when we're in the EU.

And as for removing our government if we need to - our ability as the electorate to do that won't change if we're in or out!

I'm also wondering (didn't read or see the other thread so don't know if it was covered there) why you think the EU isn't a true democracy?

Oh, and I also think that the whole 'take back control' was nothing more than a soundbite from Farage et al.

I know simplifications can be dangerous but in my view, with the world as it currently is, it boils down to this:

EU membership= equal partner among 27 others in the most powerful bloc in the world
Brexit on WTO= 1 against the world (and probably being bullied by the big boys)

Control is an illusion. It's about how we navigate this world. Partnerships always bring trade offs with them; isolation is dangerous. Even North Korea is backed by a powerful country.

It's a misunderstanding, in my opinion, that leaving the EU gives us greater control. We already have full control over our government. Although the voting system does make people feel disenfranchised. However didn't we have a referendum in 2011 about changing the way we vote and about two thirds of voters chose to keep it as is?

Also if we do 'take back control' who are we giving it to? Someone has to have control and personally I trust the EU far more than Johnson, Garage, Trump and their cronies

But what do you think @HivesMind?

What part of being in the EU has prevented us from 'controlling our own government and removing them if needed'? If anything the last few years of Brexit wrangling has demonstrated exactly how much say and control our parliament has. In the 3 years since the referendum, we have 2 General Elections, 2 new PMs, 3 years of endless parliament debate and several votes on various ways of leaving the EU which still cannot be agreed on. How can anyone can say that we are not in control or we need our sovereignty back? It's nonsense.

I started the AA Gill thread that Hives Mind is talking about. It was inflammatory. I'm sorry.

It was SingingLily that wrote on that thread:

"I believe in self-determination and a strong democracy. I believe there should be a direct link between the governed and those who govern. I believe that those who do govern do so only with the legitimacy of our consent and if they fail to do what they promised, I want to be able to vote to remove them.

To be fair, at the time I cast my vote, I didn't realise what a third-rate self-serving shower of politicians we had. But still. They are about to face their reckoning and not a day too soon.

And, possibly for the first time in my life, I found myself agreeing wholeheartedly with Tony Benn who not only said that Parliament is not sovereign, the people are sovereign and we lend this to Parliament every five years,"

I then replied: "Do you honestly believe, Singing Lily, that we currently have a strong democracy in this country? Do you believe that the UK, in the hands of Boris and his government, is/will be more of a democratic system? How will we be able to remove Boris if he gets in again? Wait for 5 years - whilst the NHS, our schools etc crumble even more? What kind of state are our lives going to be in? What effect will this have on our children?

I am more worried about those that are governing this country at the moment. I too voted to leave the EU thinking that it was not a democratic system. But it frightens me that we might soon be again in the hands of Boris and his gang of despots - with no outside protection. It frightens me knowing what they will do to this country and how we will ALL (bar the very rich) suffer as a result."

The question OP is asking has come from this.

Most of the things that crop up when 'taking back control' is mentioned were already in the UK's control, just successive UK governments couldn't be arsed to deal with them properly.

Let's take 'free movement of workers': this is great for a country (and a government) where workers come to your country - increased GDP, increased tax take without having 'invested' in these people when they were growing up. Without lifting a finger, a government can point to the economy and say they're doing a 'good job'.
Well...there's no such thing as a free lunch, so what are the 'costs', and who pays them? In this case, these workers (and maybe their families) need housing, healthcare, maybe schooling etc - these costs fall on local councils and local communities.
Central government reap the rewards, local government pay the costs and if CG doesn't pass on those rewards to the relevant LG, trouble brews (as we have seen in various parts of the UK).

EU membership= equal partner among 27 others in the most powerful bloc in the world
Brexit on WTO= 1 against the world (and probably being bullied by the big boys)

Why would anyone not know why Russia and Trump REALLY want us to leave the EU? To the extent of interfering in the democratic process?

It would sweets from a child, as we (the child) have turned our backs on our much bigger mates.

Sorry, answering the question:

No we have much LESS control. Brexit is the most extraordinarily stupid thing any advanced country has planned to do to itself. It's why the rest of world are laughing or aghast. Or both.

EU membership= equal partner among 27 others in the most powerful bloc in the world
Brexit on WTO= 1 against the world (and probably being bullied by the big boys)

Songs has it exactly right. Who do you think is going to get the best terms of trade/immigration etc in a deal between the UK and India, or the UK and the US?

I'd also disagree that 'all opinions should be respected'. Opinions that cannot be backed up with evidence and/or coherent thought are not worthy of respect.

I am truly on the fence, I can see both sides, and it frustrates me that I can't make up my mind. Sometimes the Leave arguments are strongest paired with me own feelings of injustice that we belong to a club where we pay more for our membership than most other members, at a time our government imposes austerity and the nhs and social care is grossly underfunded.

However the influx of workers from other countries clearly is advantageous to our economy and we have benefited from that increased revenue, however I take the point that the revenue hasn't been distributed to LAs to increase local services and housing causing resentment locally.

The single market isn't the magical star sprinkled (with galloping unicorns) sunny upland it's made out to be if Italy, Greece, and many other EU countries are struggling financially, and Germany is heading into recession.

I hate the sight of Nige and Boris and Corbyn and am disgusted the Lib Dem's (who always got my vote) have unilaterally opted to revoke A50 without any thought for the opinion of 17 million voters. So basically I can't vote for anyone.

What I would really love is a completely unbiased pros and cons document with no axe to grind (impossible so far). Everything I read has a bias towards one or the other.

Remaining in a sclerotic, bureaucratic, expensive organisation is not my ideal.

Leaving with no deal, or a poor deal is likely to be disastrous in the short term and uncertain in the long term. I have huge fear America will destroy our NHS.

I am totally lost

More control of what?

If we want to sell to the EU, we must meet EU standards, which if we leave we shall have no say in writing.

I agree about the "completely unbiased pros and cons document with no axe to grind". This is what should have been available to voters before the referendum.

But for me leaving the EU is now taking second place to my fear of our country being run by autocrats. Leaving the EU is woven into that of course. If we leave then our leaders (whether they be far right or far left) will be freer to do as they please, I think.

But maybe I'm wrong ...

@yellowallpaper

...without any thought for the opinion of 17 million voters

But someone always has to lose out - we'll never have a situation where all British voters agree!

And surely, if you think this:

Leaving with no deal, or a poor deal is likely to be disastrous in the short term and uncertain in the long term. I have huge fear America will destroy our NHS

... then you vote 'remain'?

(should there be another vote, of course)

Dusty01

Yes, you are correct I think - there are a bunch of EU rules and regulations that have made life better/safer for Joe public, and that have vexed UK politicians of various stripes. We, the people, would be more at the mercy of bad politicians outside the EU than inside it...and we seem to have a surfeit of bad politicians at the moment.

I don’t know SingingLily but she spoke absolute nonsense.

She believes in self determination but failed to grasp how much less power we will have on any version of Leave? Failed to realise how self serving and dumb our politicians are? How did she miss that?

The referendum itself was a self-serving dumbass move to resolve Tory party issues.

All the Leave options were out there before the referendum for anyone to verify how much power we lose.

BIWitch. But how can I vote Remain when the EU is so profligate when our NHS is struggling? Approx. €170 million annually, so every year (!), on a little jaunt from Strasbourg to Brussels which serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever. What control do we have over that?

I don't want to vote Leave either, but we have no control over what the EU does with the additional money we put in ^^

I don't want Tories, Brexit party, labour or Lib Dem's.

What I want is real unbiased facts. Even better is the EU to reform and sort it's bloody financial issues out. I'd love to stay in an EU that ran a tight lean ship that cut unnecessary expenditure

For me we can't "take back control". People who want to do business with Eu countries will have to comply with EU laws. At the moment we influence those laws. If we remained in the EEA we'd have minimal influence on those laws. If we leave the EEA we have zero input.

We, the people, would be more at the mercy of bad politicians outside the EU than inside it yes. I suppose that means UK politicians would have more control than now. So on things like employment laws, barring some sort of level playing field arrangement we could lose all our rights. More control for business, not so much control for employees.

yellowallpaper

The numbers are mind-bogglingly large...did you see the Dispatches program that calculated the NHS drugs bill rising by £27 billion per year as part of a US-UK trade deal? There are no easy answers, alas.

But how can I vote Remain when the EU is so profligate when our NHS is struggling?

Do you honestly think this is the fault of the EU? Seriously?

The NHS IS being prepared for sell off to the US pharma companies. The govt fully admitted these trade talks happened in September. Hancock is merely lying UNTIL Brexit then the sale of our national assets is on.

Just wake up to it for all our sakes.

You don't get power by saying you want it.

Our culture has way too much emphasis on the plucky underdog for my liking, we're not an underdog (despite victim mentality being a large part of brexit thinking). This isn't a situation where our cheeky spirit will see us come out and win in the end. We're just giving away influence.

MrPan you're taking me out of context and doing the 2+2=5. Very annoying. To clarify, of course the EU isn't underfunding the NHS, that's the gov. job. What annoys me is while this is happening, money we pay in excess of the benefits we get, is being wasted on the annual jolly jaunt of the eu Parliament. We are net contributors. Perhaps the countries in the EU should have a greater say according to their contribution? Maybe then we could reduce financial waste in the EU as we have been doing here for the past 10 years?

I think a referendum will occur again at some point and it must be a binding one. With all the unbiased facts maybe everyone would have a better idea of what they are voting for.