Would we have more control if we leave?

[HivesMind]

Please play nicely, folks.

Over on the AA Gill thread, @SingingLily very eloquently wrote about how they'd researched thoroughly and decided we should Leave the EU as we'd stand more chance of controlling our own government and removing them if needed...and about how the EU is not a true democracy. Apologies, my phone is playing up or I would quote directly but if anybody else can, or can summarise Lily's words better, please do.

The OP questioned whether that's really true, as did I. But the OP had already got backs up plus the original thread - Lily pointed out - was about Remainers' attitudes to Leavers, so it was more appropriate to start a new thread. So I'm asking the question here: would we really have more control, or not?

I know it's probably futile to say, but please try to be respectful to each other and non passive aggressive with answers. I totally get how emotive this is for everybody but I genuinely want to hear opinions and that won't happen if people are defensive or scared to speak. Putting my own cards on the table, I'm a Remainer and yes, I'm scared about the situation purely because of my personal set of circumstances BUT I am a Remainer who believes everybody is entitled to an opinion, that all opinions should be respected and that context is everything to how people choose to vote - no one person can see the world through the eyes of another or tell them what's right for them. And unless we shut up and listen we're even less entitled to try. So back to the original question: More control - in or out, and why?

many people on these boards have got very fundamental delusions about the nasty Tories

We are really not deluded. The very first thing the Coalition government did was increase the period you had to be employed to claim unfair dismissal. Followed by ridiculously high tribunal fees.

We only joined the Social Chapter of the EU under a Labour government.

Most Tories have come to support the minimum wage - probably because they see that if people are paid properly they don't claim benefits. That's ok with me. What is not ok with me is wanting a US model where employers can hire and fire at will. We'd keep basic equality laws but it would be much harder to enforce them and compensation for eg sex discrimination would be capped, it's EU law that currently requires it to be uncapped. EU law gives us a basic safety net.

I also think that if Boris wins the December election his government will be even more right wing than now, with so many moderates stepping down, so an assault on workers' rights is even more likely, despite what Andrea Leadsom has said.

Given Trumps quite public intervention in this election shouldn't we be more concerned with why this man has such a keen interest in our affairs. Why is he so insistent that Boris dumps the deal negotiated with the EU and leaves with no deal? What's in it for him? What sort of country will we become if we have to align more with the USA than the EU? What sort of control will this leave us cover or agriculture, food standards and NHS

we should Leave the EU as we'd stand more chance of controlling our own government and removing them if needed...and about how the EU is not a true democracy.

In terms of controlling our own government, that will not change whether we remain in the EU or leave.

It is correct that the EU is not a true democracy. But why would you expect it to be? The EU is not a country; it is an international organisation. It's a heck of a lot more democratic than other international organisations like the UN or NATO, but its remarkably democratic nature is also its downfall in this respect. Because the people do actually get a chance to vote for MEPs to represent their views, they expect the EU to behave like a country, and are miffed when it behaves like the international organisation it actually is.

to be fair, at the time I cast my vote, I didn't realise what a third-rate self-serving shower of politicians we had. But still. They are about to face their reckoning and not a day too soon.

How did you miss that?

I didn’t miss it, I commented on how extraordinary it was that you had managed to miss how dim and self-serving out politicians are when you cast your vote.

The EU is not democratic. ..... much of it is a Civil Service.

The WTO is significantly less so ....

For a start any such change would have to go through parliament and be scrutinised so it would be very unlikely that such things would get through.

Except the current Tory government don't seem to be overly enamoured with allowing Parliament to properly scrutinise bills which need to pass through Parliament though, do they? Or in allowing amendments to be made which haven't come directly from a Government minister.

Back to the initial question of 'control'.

We elect people who are supposed to be knowledgeable and informed. To make decisions on our behalf. We don't elect them to enact every ill thought out whim.

For example nuclear power. I don't like it so I elect someone who says in their manifesto that they are against it. But perhaps it's 90% of the country's power, maybe it helps power balancing, possibly we sell power and need the money... I don't worry about any of this because I elected someone to do all that thinking. Parliamentary democracy. Direct democracy which we don't have; maybe they have a referendum. But that would involve actual information and a considered question about reducing reliance over time. Not just "should we switch off all the nuclear power stations?'

Brexit democracy is handing the keys of a nuclear power station to some bloke on the bus and saying, "do what you reckon, we don't need experts". 💥

Control isn't an illusion. I cannot be an expert in everything so I should trust that politicians and public servants do. Unfortunately they appear to be representing their own interests not ours. Much more the case with the UK than the EU.

Don'tmakeme - you know full well why the Government wanted to push through the WA. They wanted to get on with it so the rest of the shits wouldn't stop it again but that didn't work. Anyway you can't complain about them considering what happen with the Benn act.
That is hardly normal procedure, we are in abnormal times.

Politics is going ways I don't want.
UK will have less leverage in the world (post Brexit).
We'll lose EHIC cards, the 4 freedoms, no roaming charges, fast passport queues into EU.
I like rule of law & due process but apparently Gina Miller & High Court judges are "Enemies of the People."
Because I support Miller/legal process, I think I would get labeled "Enemy of the People", too.

Seems I've gained nothing from Brexit (& certainly not "control").

Trade deals involve a transfer of control - the 'control' the EU has is associated with trade and a level playing field (assuring no individual member gains by treating its Labour force to worse conditions than the others)

If we want to trade with the EU on equivalent terms to today then we have to cede that control.

If we want a deal with usa/india/china then we will have to cede control to those - it is blindingly obvious that any discrete deal we do with the EU or any other country will mean we cede more control than we would have done than if we took advantage of a deal the EU will make.

So on the day we leave we have more control, by the time we have signed enough trade deals to get to where we are today we will have less control.

(leaving was supposed to be about trade deals, so about ceding control, but its hard to see why the first step would be to leave a deal that gives us access to one third of global gdp.)

I think this is my Point 3

I guess it depends on who the " we" is in the question- will we have more control?

I think some voters think the public are getting, or will get more control from a more accountable government. Ha bloody ha.In fact we have never been further from control than we are with this lot.

• we have no control of the choice of leader that was down to 0.13% of the population who paid for the privilege of choosing him.

• we have no control over the type of Brexit that was imposed by an agitating wing of the Tory party.

• we had no control of the cabinet and government we want as following many decades of slowly seizing control of the Tory party an elite wing has now seized control, ousting moderates who were elected in 2017.

• we have no control over the future economy as the impact assessments ( which normally accompany each piece of legislation) were repeatedly suppressed by the government.

• we had no control over the timing of Article 50 as the government attempted to trigger this without due process (until the courts intervened, saving some control back for us).

• we have no control over taxpayers' money as we have a government that spends vast sums on everything from ferry companies with no boats to whole new DexEU departments costing millions.

• we have no control over the £100 million of public cash to pay for a futile and expensive ad campaign on billboards, mugs and newspapers to prepare for a no-deal on October 31

• we have no control over the expenditure and content of Facebook ads targeted at voters in election marginal swing seats to gain Tory votes in places like Milton Keynes, Morley, Northampton and Workington.

• we have no control over the legislation which changes after Brexit as this has been delegated to individual ministers using Henry VIII powers.

• we had no control over when parliament is prorogued as the government illegally did this until the courts intervened , saving some control back for us.

• we have no control over the terms of a US focused trade deal in which the negotiator with the upper hand ( the US) requires us to pay higher prices for pharma and drop our food standards to reflect the lower FDA standards.

We will have more control - control to drive down standards for ordinary people and let the rich make loads of money.

goodjobsteve
Well...there's no such thing as a free lunch, so what are the 'costs', and who pays them? In this case, these workers (and maybe their families) need housing, healthcare, maybe schooling etc - these costs fall on local councils and local communities.
I am one of these immigrants, I came with my master degree paid by my parents and subsidised by another country, I brought a skill that really can’t be easily found here, I paid (1300£/m) rent to a U.K. landlord for the first years and then mortgages and taxes and land registry etc etc subsequently, always between 25 and now 40% tax for both myself and DH. Yes, we use the state school system for DC now after having paid extortionate nursery fees to British nursery owners for years, and having moved home twice to be in catchment areas.
In the meantime, the NHS has immunised our kids (thank you), and we have visited the GP maybe 5 times in 15 years. I don’t think DH has been to see a doctor in the last 5 years.
Our original plan was to spend the bulk of our working years here, and retire back to the Eu, bringing our weakest years back asa burden to another state health system. Now if the government will apply a 25% cut to our pension funds if we move them, we will think again.

And I’d say 50% of our friends and acquaintances from Dc school are in similar situation.

So
Whoever is thinking of taking back control is not looking very closely at details, I think.

Don'tmakeme - you know full well why the Government wanted to push through the WA. They wanted to get on with it so the rest of the shits wouldn't stop it again but that didn't work.

@Doubletrouble99 Yes, I do. They wanted to push the WA through without allowing MPs the time to scrutinise it and ensure they knew and understood all the implications of what they were agreeing to. You know, the sort of thing dodgy door-to-door salesmen used to do - getting people to sign and agree to terms and conditions they haven't had time to understand properly and which would then prove to have serious damaging consequences. Whether or not they are leavers or remainers, most sensible people would understand that this is not a reasonable way to conduct national affairs.

Anyway you can't complain about them considering what happen with the Benn act.
My complaint is that the Government are attempting to prevent Parliament having sufficient time to consider the legislation they are voting on. Are you suggesting that the Benn Act was voted on without MPs having time to scrutinise it properly? It was a considerably shorter and more simple piece of legislation compared to the WA.

What does control mean?

I think that goes to the heart of it.

In a globalised world, are two groups of countries, at least for trade purposes and for policy related to trade: rule takers and rule makers. The rule makers are the global giants (China, the EU and the US) who have the economic and political power to impose their rules. Other countries are effectively rule takers. If you want to trade with the EU or the US or a China, you do it on their terms.

As one of the largest and most influential members of the EU, the U.K. had a seat at the top rule-making table. After Brexit it won't. So any increased local (national-scale) control that is gained from Brexit has to be set in context of the loss of control on a continental or global scale.

Broadly speaking, I think most remainers do understand that this is a trade-off that you can have a rational discussion about (ie whether it is legitimate to give up continental or global-scale "control" for limited increases in autonomy at the national level). My personal experience is that most leavers do not believe that this trade off exists, although I would be very happy to be proved wrong in this respect.

Ahhh no, so sorry @yellowwallpaper and @SingingLily . Really bad timing, I posted and then have been away with the kids so not here to monitor. I'm really sorry my post ended up with you being talked down to and sworn at again - was the opposite of my intentions. Guys, like I've said, I'm a Remainer too and I'm finding much of the comments being posted on here by both sides very interesting....but why oh why do we need to descend to the nastiness? If you hope to understand, or even to influence people to your way of thinking....this isn't the way to go about it! Big thanks to those who have taken the time to post a calm, measured and respectful response.

@BIWitch to take the time to answer your direct question re: what my opinion is on it all....my purely personal opinion is, as others have said, that we will have less control. I too think that the politicians in this country are self-serving, particularly, unfortunately, the Tory party (who I once supported) and that there are grander schemes of elite profit powering their intentions rather than the good of the people. The EU was actually a buffer from that, and I agree that we will be impacted by them whether in or out so we were better off having a sizeable say in the decisions that they will impose upon us anyway. I am transparent in the fact that Brexit does not work well for my family at all...we have property in EU countries (without dual passports), travel there frequently, elderly relatives there who could be very badly impacted if expect situations aren't favourable, and our mortgage could become untenable if either of us lost our job (We're in very EU dependant industries) or rates were hiked.

All of that aside: I have spoken to others in very different situations who have felt very badly done by within our current political situation. I can empathise with why the felt they had to do something. I've been trying my best to understand their stance, and continue to try, but so far I'm not sure how Brexit would improve things for them, it feels a little bit like "We're hurting so everyone else must hurt too" - the only way I could see to get a good outcome for them would be a complete blank slate, and dare I say it a communist type system where everybody is equal? I am interested if there are other, feasible ways to get positive outcomes. All I can see is that for some to win, some have to lose - I wish that wasn't the case and I don't think it's ever compassionate to tell anyone who feels they are losing in a scenario that their feelings aren't valid.

I was also particularly interested in @SingingLily because, whether I agree or not, it's not a line of argument I've heard before...probably because a lot of the Leaders are so fed up of being shut down when they try that they just don't. To the poster who said Lily was writing rubbish - like I said, whether you agree with her or not, I think she expressed herself very eloquently and is worth hearing out and engaging with in a 2 sided discussion. I don't pretend to know everything by a long long way on this and whereas I'm unlikely to change my stance purely because of our personal context, I do want to hear the viewpoint of others so I can try to understand. Whatever the eventual outcome of this is - Brexit or not - We're all going to have to find a way as a country to compromise and move on together in some kind of mutual understanding...

Please don't @ me, HivesMind. I appreciate you started this thread for the best of reasons but I am very uncomfortable with the fact that some posters feel free to rubbish my views on the basis of a small and highly selective section of my original post outside the context in which it was made, and although I know this was not your intention, I have no desire to be a target for this type of attention.

By all means crack on with your thread. Just leave me out of it. Thank you.

Ive never understood the more control arguement. More control on what? We already make our own laws through Parliament and we have representation at the EU through our elected representatives. -MEPs . The Uk also had a veto {not something all member states have]. If they are saying the commission isnt elected, well neither is the Civil service.
If we want to trade with the EU after we leave and I guess we will we will still have to abide by their standards but we will not be in the EU so will have no say in them.
Do they mean more control on immigration, well yes maybe but that comes at a price because we will also lose our freedom to live and work freely in the EU. And reserch had shown that EU migrants contribute more financially to the UK than they take.
I cant see any advantages at all in leaving.