The last few days have highlighted exactly what the problem is here.......

[Bearbehind]

Leavers and Remainers see exactly the same thing in completely opposing ways.

How do we ever overcome that?

Orderly Brexit.

Agree.

But how can an orderly Brexit actually come to pass?

It’s all become so toxic.

You won't allow me to say.

I won’t, because my point is that I don’t see how the situation can arise where ‘the solution that cannot be named’ (😂) could actually happen.

I can’t actually see how anything other than no deal is possible in practice now.

Revoke and go back to normal life.

Best option - Revoke and then plan for a PROPER withdrawal in 10 years if it passes a PROPER referendum

Second Best Option - amend the WA to stay in the CU and the SM and sit at the table like Norway

But those options can’t happen either.

If we’re dreaming about what’s possible I’d say a completely impartial campaign on the reality of WA v No deal v Revoke then a PV.

But that’s not going to happen.

Best option - Revoke and then plan for a PROPER withdrawal in 10 years if it passes a PROPER referendum

Yes the whole thing wasn't time critical -until the Tories made it so to try and bridge their internal chasm.

How is a no deal help the situation? The doctor who spoke out about yellowhammer said there would be deaths if a no deal went through. Do you think that's right?
What would a no deal achieve? Leavers would celebrate on the 31st, they will cheer that they beat the EU, They have made Britain great again. A few days later when reality sits in, the UK government will have to sit down with the EU to discuss deals, except there will be more urgency now due to a no deal exit and the chaos that will cause. Even if there is no problems, the will still have to meet the EU and make trade deals. The same issues will still be there. Boris Johnson needs to come up with an alternative to the backstop, he said he had it so what's stopping him from delivering it. The only thing that's been said that they want to do trade deals now and deal with the backstop later on, the EU has refused that. The backstop isn't going to just go away unless a proper alternative is there to replace it.

Are you not bored of basically starting the same thread over and over again yet?

Leavers and remainers don’t see the same thing. A roadmap to leaving should have been put forward prior to the referendum not a load of fantasies. There is no way to united the country now, too far down the rabbit hole.

There's no end. Even if the UK revoked A50 the violent division in the country would remain and the UK would be distrusted by the rest of Europe for a generation. Political parties will tear themselves apart.

If there's a managed Brexit neither side is satisfied and Europe will be dragged into costly and time consuming negotiations. It will be a running sore for many years.

If there's a no deal people will die, business will go bust, living standards will plummet and the UK will become the equivalent of the poorest eastern European country but without the humility and desire to better itself.

Take your pick.

If the Government announced tomorrow that we had left but they had managed to sort the border issues
how would most Brits ever know if we had or not?

How would they quantify the reality of Brexit?

Because Brexit is not a real thing
it will never be tangible

so why not admit the smoke and mirrors and just pretend that BINO happened a week ago last Tuesday
then everybody would be happy

I agree with Sarahlou - there's no end. Nobody is ever going to be satisfied with any outcome. And then they'll never forgive the other side because they would totally have got their preferred outcome, even if it genuinely was for rainbow shitting unicorn pegasi, if it hadn't been for those pesky kids. Maybe when everybody of the current living generations are dead.

listening that’s as good a solution as any, and sadly it’s completely true.

Which is why this is all so pointless.

Citizen's assemblies. Everywhere. Until sorted.
Jaw jaw jaw, never war war. Postpone decision, extend article 50 indefinitely and make every angry person attend a CA funded by the state.

It's a maze, intit my maizies? Only way I can see is GE held as soon as law allows.

If that GE doesn't produce a 'governable' HoC, one that can cohesively vote one way or another on anything, then a 2nd Ref with the same binary question - Leave or Remain should be held.

By declaring and following that process, it might be necessary that the UK would need to ask the EU for an Extension, in order to fulfill the existing statutory UK time limits in regards to Elections, the Benn Bill and any possibly following Referendum.

In the spirit of breaking 'deadlock' of course.

I would also suggest a Blanket Ban on any campaigning at all in the case of a second EU UK Leave/Remain Referendum. Absolutely no Leave/Remain 'advice' at all.

Testing the 'pulse', I'd say the vast majority have had a 'gutful' of so-called advice and just want to get on with their own shit.

Any outcome re Brexit won't overcome this. I honestly don't think it's about eu membership anymore. Arguably it never was, at least for 95% if those who voted. WA/no deal/revoke is irrelevant to overcoming the divide. The Tory party has fucked up. What's amazing me most is why none of the opposing parties (apart from NF) are shouting this from the rooftops 🤔

I honestly don't think it's about eu membership anymore. Arguably it never was

100% agree. Although I have no idea WTF is is about.

On the one hand, Brexit has fractured society (or rather, has revealed already-existing fractures) along entirely new lines.

On the other hand, as a non-party-political more-or-less centrist floating voter without sociocultural/familial political baggage, I've been fascinated to see how people do seem to colour their Brexit views along old lines. Lots of "but Corbyn" "but the Coalition" "but student fees" "but austerity" "but fuck business" "but unpatriotic whining lefties" "but rich metropolitan liberals not understanding the poor northerners" "but the economy" "but right wing nutters"

Brexit is simultaneously a new and old demon speaking in seductive tongue.

A second referendum with defined options, a government that stays neutral and therefore is able to enact whichever solution gets the majority.

It's just a culture war now. And whatever happens I dont know how you'll tamp that down... long and slow is my guess. I've just made the mistake of looking at my Facebook where grown 50-60 year old men and women are calling each other things like "fucking libtards" and "spineless snowflakes" . These are people who knew each other in real life. Yoda.... anger leads to suffering.

In the long run, compulsary citizenship lessons in secondary schools?

Eg, the difference between the legistlature and the executive, the different parts of the uncodified constitution, legal checks and balances, the tension/line between freedom of speech and hate speech, freedom of the press etc etc

Revoke and then plan for a PROPER withdrawal in 10 years if it passes a PROPER referendum

Please god no.

Orderly Brexit please.