Freedom of movement with Aus, NZ and Canada, post Brexit?

[Mackerz]

www.canzukinternational.com/category/free-movement

This is interesting. As part of a post Brexit trade deal, Britain and Australia are considering relaxing immigration controls between the two countries.

Yes, it’s hard to get a visa for those countries. I’m highly educated and looked at all of them about ten years ago and didn’t qualify.

Trade deals are all about exchanging concessions in return for benefits.

The trade benefits for Australia from a deal with the U.K. are really not that large. Australia is a long way away and most of their trade is with Asia, for obvious geographical reasons.

There may be some loosening of immigration rules for skilled younger workers but they will not be queuing up to take older or less skilled immigrants. My two cousins are long term immigrants to Australia (architect and civil engineer respectively), both are naturalised Australians but they still couldn't bring their mum over to live with them because of her age and likely medical costs.

I cannot see the benefit at all for australia. I have lived there myself and its hard to get residency. My Irish sister and her English boyfriend both are now residents so can avail of medical but im still not sure about social welfare if either lost their jobs. Its certainly not like the UK or Ireland in that respect.

@nancy75

As an Australian born Brit who has 'ping-pommed' back and forth, Nancy any one is welcomed in Australia provided that they come through with the correct visa. I have as many friends who were born in South East Asia, India, Sri Lanka, China, Hong Kong as I do Australian born (and some are second generation Australians too). I actually did not have any friends who were British that I did not know from living in London the first time around. Obviously, they did not live in my area of Sydney or kept to themselves.

In my own experience, having lived in Queensland and in Sydney for most of my (long) life, the British and South African immigrants are not welcomed any more warmly at all than other immigrants.

The UK made getting visas for Australians to work here quite difficult after the Eastern Bloc countries joined in the early 2000's. It will be interesting to see what conditions this 'freedom of movement' has on both sides. I am not sure that it will be a replica of the relationship that Aust/NZ share though.

I'm curious about what we will be trading with Australia. Nothing fresh because of the time. Nothing cheap because of the fuel costs. So expensive manufactured goods. How many British cars does Australia need? That they couldn't get MASSIVELY cheaper from Asia.

My sister went to live in Australia briefly. It was supposed to be a year long trip however she ended up coming back after 3 months due to the amount of racism she was subject to (someone writing "go home nigger" on her door was the final straw). As a Black Brit, FoM with Australia is not remotely of interest to me. Somehow I suspect Brexiteers won't give a singular fuck.

I think we import beef and wine and export professional and business services.

Somebody commented on NZ not being racist.

I'm afraid in small town NZ that's not true. I've had relatively "teasing" remarks about my English ancestry, I've heard some quite shocking remarks about Asians, including on mainstream radio.

There is also a belief amongst UK expats in NZ that a lot of SA expats get a sympathetic ear to their racist remarks about black SA once they arrive and settle in NZ.

There was plenty I loved and admired about NZ, I had mixed feelings about returning home. The majority of NZ is very welcoming to all foreigners, but especially if you're white and English speaking.

It is (imo rightly) v difficult now to get into Australia. My employer sponsors my visa and if the rules don't change continued sponsorship after a mandatory residency period should entitle us to permanent residency here. But as an experienced solicitor over 30 I would likely not have enough points to get a visa on my own merits even though my occupation is on the skill shortage list - I need the sponsorship. Australia is very selective.

Anyway I would not want the UK to have FOM with any country. I would suppost a system like Australia's where workers can get time limited visas and can sponsor immediate family only (spouse/partner and children), provided they have no recourse to state support or healthcare or education unless and until they achieve permanent residency status, and provided that citizenship wasn't granted to children of immigrant workers.

I have no idea why the UK is so lax, it's infuriating.

provided that citizenship wasn't granted to children of immigrant workers.

Your suggestion makes permanent residency pointless then. Why would anyone want to actually settle in a place that will see their children discriminated against?
Is it because the intention here would be to keep migration to short term and make sure then leave again after a couple of years?

Thats unfair a statement! My sister has been out there years fighting for residency as is her boyfriend. I know they want a family and would hate to think that if and when they do that their kids couldnt get citizenship.

It seems harder again to get residency than when i was there but I lived there 19 years ago and was almost there before it became a ‘thing’. We have loads of family there (uncle, cousins etc) and I still keep in touch with some Aussie friends which helpd us go back for a holiday when my boys were small. I had contemplated returning for good at one point and if anything happened to my family here we would probably try again. Best not to think like that at the moment though!

I wonder why no one mentions the US?

Because FOM with the US has never and will never be on the table. The US has an agreement with Canada, which is reciprocal, but again it would be a totally unequal relationship. The US is massive (approx. 300 million people), and while some are eager for us to have a trade deal with them, personally I'm not, as it's bound to be disadvantageous for this country. We'd be very much the junior partner, plus Trump is only out for what he can get and he's not going to give us anything approaching favourable terms.

As for FOM with India, why would Britain even contemplate that? I don't do one British person who has or ever had any interest in living and working in India, even for a short time. I know plenty of people who've been there on holiday, but that's it. So, if FOM with the UK wouldn't benefit Australia, similarly FOM with India wouldn't benefit the UK. AFAIK what Narendra Modi was seeking was a relaxation of visa rules, not FOM (which is never going to happen).

India is a brilliant place to work in. Well qualified experienced staff with a great work ethic. We have opportunities for staff from UK and India to do 12 month secondments in each other’s country. I spend a week working there every three months.

It was supposed to be a year long trip however she ended up coming back after 3 months due to the amount of racism she was subject to (someone writing "go home nigger" on her door was the final straw).

Shocking. But I guess not completely surprising given the history of treatment towards black indigenous people and
the ' turnback' policy towards Indonesian and Sinhalese asylum seeker boats. And this from a nation of recent immigrants.

In 1945, when Australian, Canadian and NZ troops helped complete the liberation of Europe from fascism, people from all three of those countries had the full right to settle in the UK. They were all British subjects. Then time moved on and Europe decided to heal itself by forming the EC and since then has engaged in beggar-my-neighbour economic policies through farming subsidies. This has done great harm to the economies of the aforementioned countries, Aus and NZ particularly once the UK entered. Until then, those countries exported huge amounts of foodstuffs to the UK, meat particularly. There is absolutely no reason why that can't be reinstated.

Now, only after Brexit, the EU has come sniffing around for a trade deal after 30 years of non. I don't think that's any sort of a coincidence. I would like to think that it's a belated recognition of the debt that the countries of the EU owe, but I don't think so somehow.

There is also no reason why FOM shouldn't be reinstated. Those countries were shut out in favour of EU nations. It may be sad for the people of those countries if the pendulum were to swing back, but it would be no worse for them than it was for Aus / Can / NZ.

Someone above said there were no links worth preserving because they were based on colonialism. This is pure snobbery, and ignores the fact that there are actual family relations involved. Where I live, most people have a UK grandparent or great-grandparent in the mix. The cultures really are similar, and the benefits of migration for both countries very real.

As for racism: all three countries have absorbed far more immigration per capita than the UK without anything like the tensions the UK has, and frankly there is very little the UK can teach them about race relations. Yes of course there is racism, but it's a very common mistake for UK immigrants to confuse a simple lack of politesse that exists here with the sort of racism that an awful lot of people in the UK simply keep quiet about.

I grew up in England and now live in NZ. I got far more racists crap in Scotland. In terms of race relations, there is a far more honest, straightforward and long-standing dialogue not to mention progress about these things in this country and it really does compare favourably to the empty rhetoric, hypocracy, grandstanding and hypersensitivity that characterises the UK's relatively weaker efforts on the same topic.

I think you've misunderstood me or I wasn't clear: Australia confers citizenship to children born to Australian permanent residents or citizens. You cannot just get a visa, fly in, give birth and then BOOM your baby is Australian.

I wish it were the same in the UK but sadly we apply the same (imo) ridiculous laws as the US where a birth on UK soil = citizenship. It causes no end of difficulties and i cannot understand it.

If I fell pregnant here (Aus) I'd likely have to leave. My visa is a work visa - if I cease working I'd get a grave period to leave and that's it. If I was allowed to stay then my baby wouldn't be Aus it would be UK/Dutch.

I don't think that's wrong tbh. Seems fair

*grace not grave!

There is also no reason why FOM shouldn't be reinstated.

It was the UK's choice to stop it.

As far as I’m aware, India’s hasn’t said it intends to pursue freedom of movement in any Brexit trade deal. If someone has evidence otherwise, I’d be interested to see it, because the only statements I’ve seen on the matter are from an Indian diplomat saying that, as part of a trade deal, he would like to see a relaxation of the current, extremely onerous, visa requirements for Indian professionals in medicine, engineering and tech to enter the U.K.

This is pure snobbery, and ignores the fact that there are actual family relations involved. Where I live, most people have a UK grandparent or great-grandparent in the mix. The cultures really are similar, and the benefits of migration for both countries very real.

Yes, but I can immediately think of ten families with one EU spouse, who don't know what their position will be in the future. This is not the same as having a great grandparent who was British. How many Australians or New Zealanders are married to British Citizens, with problems of whether they will be allowed to stay in their country or not?

For what it's worth DBiL was in Australia and lost his job, so had to Leave.

Peregrina I obviously think it's sad your brother lost his job in Aus but I do think that's the way immigration should work. Obviously after a time of being settled, paying tax and being self sufficient you earn either citizenship or privileges equivalent to citizenship and that's fair snd right too.

I didn't vote to leave but I never have and never will agree with free movement. The UK made it even worse by neglecting to implement FOM safeguards for EU citizens but the idea that you and your entire extended family could just move to the UK as you pleased is fucking lunacy (and its lunacy in reverse as well of course).

I wish it were the same in the UK but sadly we apply the same (imo) ridiculous laws as the US where a birth on UK soil = citizenship

I don't think the UK does.

And it's a brave person who dismisses the 14th amendment as "ridiculous" ... it suggests they don't really know much about US history.

Sounds ace

I wish it were the same in the UK but sadly we apply the same (imo) ridiculous laws as the US where a birth on UK soil = citizenship. It causes no end of difficulties and i cannot understand it.

No, the UK only gives citizenship to children of permanent residents or on the basis of birth in the UK + 10 years continuous residence (then you can register the child as British and that comes at a fee nearly as high as naturalisation, ie £1100 which I personally think is wrong). The UK isn't lax country at all in that respect.