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Brexit
Original poster

My head is addled, but can you tell me the answer to this?

42 replies

HollowTalk · 31/08/2019 19:55

So Boris Johnson voted against Theresa May in the first two votes.

What exactly is the deal that he's hoping to make with the EU? I know he keeps talking about a deal and I know about the backstop, but other than that is he wanting a completely different deal to Theresa May?

I have burned out with Brexit and fear I shall soon be put away, far from a television and the internet, for my own safety.

OP posts:
JustMe9 · 31/08/2019 19:58

I think it is a "no deal" that the brexit is heading to

Original poster
HollowTalk · 31/08/2019 20:03

Yes I think that's where he wants to go to, but what is it he's wanting the EU to agree to? I think I'm overloaded with info and given he voted against TM's deals, what is it he's proposing? I know his ridiculous opinions on the backstop, but there must be more to his ideas, surely?

OP posts:
niceberg · 31/08/2019 20:13

I feel your pain! I thought it was all about the backstop. But Merkel says he hasn't proposed an alternative solution since their meeting. He waffled on about technology didn't he, but (as per) hasn't come up with a detailed or feasible plan.

cherin · 31/08/2019 20:28

OP, you ask a very good question, and you’re not alone!
I thinkwhat BJ wants more than anything is glory and power. In order to keep it, at this stage, he needs to get us out by 31.10. If he fails, he needs to be able to blame someone else really loudly. But I think his first plan is to get us out.
Ideally with a deal that looks different enough from the WA to please the ERG, and that means without the backstop, even if some of the more fervent ergs are now saying hard crash is the only acceptable way.
If he gets this through, bingo!
It’s unlikely, though. For all his posturing, the feedback he always got from the EU was the same. Forget about it unless you’ve got a serious alternative plan, but he hasn’t and the time is not enough anyway.
So he’s just lying.
He’s heading for a hard brexit trying to deflect the blame for it, and basically putting all of he energy in an early campaign for the next elections, so his time in office now doubles up as campaign and party agenda for the next stage. He’ll do his best to manipulate the timing so he gets elected soon after the crash, when there’ll be “little” manifestation of the consequences yet.
What it’s going to happen 5-10 years down the line tbh I can’t see. Why would he want to be the PM of a country in turmoil for the next 5yrs and have to actually DO something to get trade agreements? Dunno. Maybe because the alternative is to be the opposition of a country in turmoil. Or a backbencher of the same. Or the figure at the centre of a dart board in every pub up and down the country. Boh

whymewhynow · 31/08/2019 20:29

The backstop is an excuse not to vote for the WA or engage with the EU - the ERG has briefed since the 30 days business that its members wouldn't vote for the WA even if the backstop were to be removed. I think a lot of people in the Tory party wanted No Deal all along and have been trying to steer the country in that direction ever since the referendum. It has been an eye-opening illustration of what happens when you try to appease bullies and monomaniacs.

cherin · 31/08/2019 20:34

Or maybe is no really him anyway, he’s just the puppet whose strings are pulled by somebody else. But they found a willing accomplice, uh, you need to be good to lye so well. Teresa could not do it, she could not shed her image of responsible grown up (robotic and idiotic, if I’m allowed an opinion, but I think she believed she was trying to do the best for the country. And she did bring an agreement to the HoC, after all...)

Apileofballyhoo · 31/08/2019 21:00

I think she believed she was trying to do the best for the country

Sometimes I think that too, but she was also desperately trying not to split her party. She didn't try anything else for fear of splitting her party. She might have got cross party agreement to some kind of deal, possibly including a "People's Vote". She didn't try. She didn't try for a SM+CU because of her own hatred of immigration as far as I can see. She didn't try for a softer Brexit because of her own party. I do think she did the very best she could and got an excellent deal, but she wasn't doing her best solely for the UK, she was doing her best not to split her party. In her head those two things might be the same thing, and maybe she should have taken a harder line with her own rebels, like it seems Dom Cummings is doing.

This whole thing started with Tory fear of splitting the Tory vote. They've split the country instead.

cherin · 31/08/2019 21:07

Agree. Particularly with the “in her head it might have been the same thing”
It’s really had for me to comprehend it, but these people live in a different world. They are born and raised along party lines. She comes from a different world. Borisdefeffel for another one again. And they have not a clue what they’re dealing with....
I resent it. But in a way I also understand it. “Normal” people like us would never choose that life. We do our little bits in our communities and are happy with it. I suspect it takes a psychopath to choose a career in politics, by definition!

bellinisurge · 31/08/2019 21:15

He will make WA 2.0 which will be ostensibly the same. Just as he is closing off routes for anti-No Dealers so he is doing the same for the No Dealers.

Snowy111 · 31/08/2019 21:53

I think he wanted a harder Brexit than the WA would have given - but as that seemed unlikely to get him anywhere he voted for WA third time round. Ostensibly now he just wants to get rid of the backstop, which he thinks the EU can use to never let us “leave”.

There is no completely different deal on the table. It’s the WA. Or no deal. Or some GATT 24 middle ground which experts say is impossible.

I’m shattered with it too. The scary thing is, we haven’t even got to the Brexit starting post. Unless we have a second referendum and vote remain, sorting out the aftermath of Brexit and getting back to normality will take yearsAngry

MyOtherProfile · 31/08/2019 21:55

Johnson wants glory. That's it. I think he would like a deal and get the glory for that but if not he would be happy with a no deal crash out that he can blame on those awfully stubborn people in Brussels.

Apileofballyhoo · 31/08/2019 22:01

Boris wants what's best for Boris, but I'm having trouble figuring out what Boris thinks is best for Boris. I wonder if he knows himself.

BackInTime · 31/08/2019 23:34

There is no time for a whole new deal and the EU have said that they are not willing to renegotiate. What they have said that if Boris can come up with an alternative to the Backstop that respects the GFA and the SM then they would be prepared to listen. Despite the spin from Downing Street, Ireland and the EU are still waiting.

Peregrina · 01/09/2019 09:13

I think deep down, May tried to be honest, although she had a lot of blind spots. Johnson appears to have no moral compass whatever, and lying is second nature to him.

Original poster
HollowTalk · 01/09/2019 09:47

I think Theresa May was diligent and hardworking, but essentially she was both ineffectual and appeasing - that made it impossible for her to achieve anything. She was a complete idiot for even considering invoking Article 50 when none of them had a clue what Brexit would look like.

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Peregrina · 01/09/2019 09:52

She was a complete idiot for even considering invoking Article 50 when none of them had a clue what Brexit would look like.

Indeed. What would have happened if she had called the ERG's bluff at that point?

CrunchyCarrot · 01/09/2019 10:39

Johnson wants the EU to drop the backstop but Barnier has said today that's not going to happen. So it's looking more and more likely we'll have a No Deal.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49540681

Original poster
HollowTalk · 01/09/2019 11:02

I agree it's likely that No Deal will happen, but what would Johnson like to happen, in his ideal world? (Apart from ND, which is probably his intention all along.) What is HIS deal?

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CrunchyCarrot · 01/09/2019 11:05

What is Johnson's deal? To make himself into the most memorable PM and getting himself and his party another 5 years in office. He'll do that however he can, whether it involves a No Deal or some other kind of last minute deal. What he won't do is not Brexit.

Snowy111 · 01/09/2019 11:24

No one really confident here of what BJ’s deal is Grin

But “we voted for it” so just get it done BJHmm

Actually there was talk of Canada plus plus that came from the ERG - has he dropped that now though?

Apileofballyhoo · 01/09/2019 13:46

Johnson is planning on no deal and a general election. No deal satisfies the ERG and the "Brexit at any price" population. A general election should rid him of the DUP and the threat of the Brexit Party, particularly if it happens immediately after October 31st. What is the point of the Brexit Party if the UK has already Brexited?

Ridding himself of the DUP should allow him to sign up to a NI only back stop of some sort, allowing deals to go ahead with the EU and the US.

I'm trying to figure out what would happen if he went ahead with a GE before Oct 31st. Same thing I suppose, except more of a threat from the Brexit Party? Can a Vote of No Confidence passing next week allow for a GE before the 31st? Can he get a vote passed for a GE when parliament returns in September and what date would the election be? Would the consequences of No Deal be startling enough by then for people to vote against the Conservatives?

Snowy111 · 01/09/2019 18:39

But apileofballyhoo if we have no deal there will be no need for a NI backstop because the worst would already have happenedConfused

Apileofballyhoo · 01/09/2019 19:05

The EU won't do any trade deals unless the backstop is reinstated.

Eyewhisker · 01/09/2019 19:55

No deal is not an end state. The UK and EU will need to have some trading arrangements. No deal is a temporary stand-off until a deal is reached. With 45% of UK imports and exports going to EU countries, the impact on the UK will be severe.

HPFA · 01/09/2019 20:05

They all still believe that the EU will do something magical that satisfies the ERG lunatics but won't involve sorting out all the hard, boring inconveniences of living outside the EU.

I call them "November 1st deniers" and they're pretty common on social media and in the government. Whenever you ask any practical question about Nov 1st they're not interested - the so-called victory is the only thing that matters.