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Brexit

Can someone explain the Irish backstop to me in very simple words?

493 replies

Apolloanddaphne · 23/08/2019 16:34

I am an intelligent woman with multiple degrees but i have to confess i have no idea what the back stop is. I am too scared to ask my DH or my friends lest they think i am an imbecile (lighthearted). I have tried googling it to read articles about it but i just don't get it.

One of my friends is Irish and has a piece in a newspaper today related this today. If it comes up in conversation next time i see him i would at least like to be able to say something semi intelligent about it!

Help me please. Use easy words. Thanks.

OP posts:
implantsandaDyson · 26/08/2019 13:22

Just so I'm clear here - you think getting rid of the Good Friday Agreement, getting some "terrorists" round a table and hammering put a different agreement than the one that people campaigned for, voted for is the way forward. You do know although I wouldn't hold my breath that people thought long and hard about their vote on the GFA - that thousands of people put aside hurt and long held political beliefs to vote on a way forward. And you think that putting that aside and getting another referendum organised because the British Govt couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery and that David Cameron put the Conservative party ahead of everything else - that's the people of NI's problem to fix? Christ the arrogance!

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 13:27

@implantsandaDyson Jeez - calm down.

What I'm saying is, that it's the threat of a return to violence now which leaves us with no options. So, how about getting those people on opposing sides, to sit down and agree an addendum to the GFA.

While NI didn't cause Brexit nor ask for Brexit, they are the fly in the ointment of the great Brexit exit.. And I think they may be the key to solving the current stalemate.

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 13:28

It's like everyone is talking over NI and not allowing NI to actually speak. Westminster making decisions, with only the DUP being vocal on the interests of NI. Yes, Leo Varadkar wants to uphold the terms of the GFA, but we're missing one side - stubborn Sinn Fein.

Inniu · 26/08/2019 13:30

It’s not just about violence and terrorism. These only flourish in communities where people were generally very unhappy with how they as a community were treated and did not recognize the State as legitimate.

The GFA allowed a system to be set up that most people could live with. There were lots of elements to the agreement. Allowing lots of cross border cooperation, a local executive and legislative body, Ireland had a referendum and changed its constitutional position on Northern Ireland.
Central to all of this is the doctrine of consent. The constitutional position of the people of Northern Ireland can only be changed with their consent.
Not the consent of the UK as a whole or Ireland North and South but just the people of Northern Ireland.
But their position has been changed without their consent and that will become more blatant and in their face with a hard border.

It is not just about terrorism but that will be a consequence and a seance with the ghosts of Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness won’t change that.

prettybird · 26/08/2019 13:30

Stormont sitting again would be a start - but that doesn't look likely in the near future Sad

ListeningQuietly · 26/08/2019 13:33

Northern Ireland MP's
demographic change in one chart .....
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Northern_Ireland#Elections_to_the_United_Kingdom_House_of_Commons

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 13:33

So put a hard border in, have done with it. Deal with the fall out when it comes. Looks like where we're headed with no deal anyway as that will be the default position.

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 13:37

Incidentally, while threats of violence have been alluded to, there has been no actual threat of violence in the event of a hard border that I'm aware of. Yes, people will be unhappy, but will they get on with it?
People talk like it's a given, but maybe we're fearing something that actually won't even happen!

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 13:39

As an observer (Irish living in England), NI seem to grumble among themselves, but I don't think they'll actually DO anything at this stage in the event of a hard border.

DioneTheDiabolist · 26/08/2019 13:48

Paramilitaries are rubbing their hands in anticipation of a No Deal and the subsequent hard border.. What makes you think they aren't going to do anything Bowsby?Confused

DioneTheDiabolist · 26/08/2019 13:48

Sorry Bowsy5.Blush

MindyStClaire · 26/08/2019 13:50

Bowsy as I read your posts my jaw is dropping further and further. It's utterly bewildering to me that someone from Ireland would post such things.

The people of NI have spoken, 71% voted in favour of the GFA.

Apileofballyhoo · 26/08/2019 13:53

Central to all of this is the doctrine of consent. The constitutional position of the people of Northern Ireland can only be changed with their consent.
Not the consent of the UK as a whole or Ireland North and South but just the people of Northern Ireland.

Just to clarify, Ireland also has to consent (separately to NI though).

People talk like it's a given, but maybe we're fearing something that actually won't even happen! And maybe BJ will sign up to the WA.

Inniu · 26/08/2019 13:53

www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-49396108

www.bbc.com/news/uk-48018615

If you think there hasn’t been violence in NI this year you have not been watching

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 13:55

The people of NI have spoken, 71% voted in favour of the GFA.

Yes, and then Brexit happened. Like it or not, it ain't going away. So now where do we go from here?

FractalChaos · 26/08/2019 13:56

My question is this: if we have a UK wide backstop, that meets the conditions of a trade deal with the US as the GFA is preserved. but we cannot do a trade deal with them as then we are part of the SM/CU and have no say over the standards as we are actually part of the EU. so it means that a trade deal with the US independent of the EU is not possible, and this is why the Brexieers dont like it... but without a backstop, we cannot preserve the GFA so we can't do a deal then either??

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 13:57

Inniu, I know, in fact I think I've posted on this very thread about the bomb last week in Fermanagh at the border.

I'm just wondering how great is this threat.

MindyStClaire · 26/08/2019 13:58

So now where do we go from here?

The UK government faces up to its responsibilities and treats NI with the respect we deserve? I know it's a crazy proposal, but just imagine for a second if it actually happened.

Peregrina · 26/08/2019 13:59

So, how about getting those people on opposing sides, to sit down and agree an addendum to the GFA.

Why should they sit down and agree an addendum to the GFA. NI and the Republic both agreed to it; NI voted to Remain. As far as I am concerned, the ball is firmly in the Leavers's court. Mostly English Leavers, I will add.

At some stage though, whoever is in power, will have to try to start reconciling the two sides in the rest of the UK. But this might not happen for 40 odd years or so. Grievances take a long time to be resolved.

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 13:59

@FractalChaos More or less. Although, the US are just threatening not to do a trade deal if the terms of the GFA are breached (though I did read the threat comes from a team headed up by the man who would be responsible for any trade deal so it's possibly not an idle threat).

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 14:01

Trump is no Clinton so I wouldn't expect him to give a fuck about NI (if he even knows what or where it is).

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 14:03

When Trump was in Ireland earlier in the year, he talked about America having a border and building a wall and Leo Varadkar had to interrupt him to say 'eh actually what we want to AVOID is a border'.

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 14:05

This is Trump on the border/wall Grin

MindyStClaire · 26/08/2019 14:06

I'm just wondering how great is this threat.

Do you want to find out?

It's not like there's a specific threat in place for Day 1, that will see X killed in NI and Y killed in GB (although, fuck knows, maybe there is).

Introducing a hard border will have a massively negative impact on people's lives. They won't be able to do things they did before, businesses will suffer, jobs will be lost. The first people hit by this will be those with no buffer - as ever, economic strife comes first for the poor, not the rich.

As people see every facet of their lives changed, they will get desperate. This is becomes a rich recruiting ground for paramilitaries. As attacks on border posts ramp up, so do retaliatory attacks on nationalist communities.

People begin to distrust the people around them, especially those from the other community.

Then, that's it. That's the Troubles again. Instead of rubbing along happily enough together, the old divide becomes apparent. Security is stepped up, and then the security is attacked. Old wounds reopen.

At the minute, there are still paramilitaries but they don't have support within their communities. People have seen peace and they like it. But trust me when I say, massive disruption to day-to-day life and huge economic penalties will whip us back to the bad old times quicker than we'd like to imagine.

Apileofballyhoo · 26/08/2019 14:09

FractalChaos it doesn't have to be UK wide, so rUK could do whatever deals it wants.