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Brexit

Can someone explain the Irish backstop to me in very simple words?

493 replies

Apolloanddaphne · 23/08/2019 16:34

I am an intelligent woman with multiple degrees but i have to confess i have no idea what the back stop is. I am too scared to ask my DH or my friends lest they think i am an imbecile (lighthearted). I have tried googling it to read articles about it but i just don't get it.

One of my friends is Irish and has a piece in a newspaper today related this today. If it comes up in conversation next time i see him i would at least like to be able to say something semi intelligent about it!

Help me please. Use easy words. Thanks.

OP posts:
chomalungma · 25/08/2019 19:31

As an aside - it's always interesting to hear people call it the Belfast Agreement.

I am guessing that people with certain political views call it that.

Apileofballyhoo · 25/08/2019 19:34

Blibbyblobby well said.

jewel1968, I have. But not enough people have unfortunately. It should be studied in schools as the greatest fudge/piece of diplomacy of all time. It's absolute genius.

Apileofballyhoo · 25/08/2019 19:39

I always think that too, chomalungma, maybe using Comhaontú Bhéal Feirste would be a good compromise.

Peregrina · 25/08/2019 20:26

Besides Leavers want to CONTROL OUR BORDERS.

Voila212 · 25/08/2019 20:49

That's the bit that confuses me, how can you 'protect your borders.. If people enter Ireland all they have to do is travel to Northern Ireland and enter the UK. I watched Sky new during the week and a reporter from NI said that it would be impossible to police people entering.Also the majority of businesses want to stay in the Customs union because the wto would cost too much but the DUP would rather ruin NI economy then then to be seen as less British.

Bowsy5 · 25/08/2019 21:21

Lol - Voila - so you see that the problem is the DUP?

Bowsy5 · 25/08/2019 21:22

Nothing whatsoever to do with Ireland.

Voila212 · 25/08/2019 21:28

That's right Bowsy, now you're getting it.😉
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=thedetail.tv/articles/wto&ved=2ahUKEwiRk-bj7Z7kAhXSThUIHcAECr0QFjAKegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw02kAacHNc-kmOiKb5Vp8L1" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=thedetail.tv/articles/wto&ved=2ahUKEwiRk-bj7Z7kAhXSThUIHcAECr0QFjAKegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw02kAacHNc-kmOiKb5Vp8L1

Voila212 · 25/08/2019 21:30

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-irish-border-boris-johnson-backstop-varadkar-deal-eu-a9030676.html&ved=2ahUKEwiK_eqS7p7kAhVlSxUIHWE5D6MQFjAEegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1u3j37cKDH81stuuAc1caP" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-irish-border-boris-johnson-backstop-varadkar-deal-eu-a9030676.html&ved=2ahUKEwiK_eqS7p7kAhVlSxUIHWE5D6MQFjAEegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1u3j37cKDH81stuuAc1caP

Bowsy5 · 25/08/2019 22:31

Oh you're preaching to the converted here. Boris seems wedded to them though.

DioneTheDiabolist · 25/08/2019 23:16

Yes but Boris has a rather individual take on being wedded.

Apileofballyhoo · 26/08/2019 10:24

Yes but Boris has a rather individual take on being wedded.
Grin

Eustasiavye · 26/08/2019 11:18

Thank you for starting this thread.
Several things stand out for me.
I had no idea about the number of boarders between NI and Southern Ireland.
The news in England has often been very ' wishy washy' to say the least and not inspiring to watch or read.it
History was taught in a very English way. I was at secondary school in the 1980s and the only information about NI and ' the troubles' as they were referred to, I could get was through watching the news.
We were not taught about it at school.
It wasn't until dd1 went to uni and met a Catholic Irish student that I even considered things such as The Gunpowder plot were not fact.
The student out a very different slant on things for my dd1 and she then explained them to me. At school all children were taught that the Catholic plotters were bad and evil.

It's easy to mock people for their ignorance but when you look further the public is often so confused that half of them don't know who to believe.
I'm not condoning ignorance.
However I was bombarded with leaflets during the Brexit campaign, most of which were total racist nonsense.
I did research lots of things but the back stop was not one of them.

Mumsie448 · 26/08/2019 12:09

As far as I can see, there are only the following logical alternatives;
1.
Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU. Obviously, some people would like this. However, it goes against the result of the Referendum, and is considered politically impossible.
2.
Border between Northern Ireland (NI) and Republic of Ireland (RoI).
Theoretically, this is possible, because they already have different legal systems, different health service, different education, and especially a different monetary system.
However, this would break the terms of the Good Friday Agreement (GFA), which forbids a border.
This may provoke violence from the IRA. (I have NOT read the GFA, but going on media reports.)
3.
Keen Brexiteers have stated goods can be checked away from the border electronically and claim this is done elsewhere. The EU state is can’t be done.
4.
Under the terms of Theresa May’s Withdrawal Agreement (WA), The UK would stay in the single market and customs union, until all other 27 countries agree, thus avoiding a need for a border. But we would have no MEPs, and no EU commissioners. Brexiteers complain this would make the UK a colony of the EU, accepting their trade rules, etc without any say in anything.
(This was presented and voted against in Parliament 3 times)
Note, there may be other things purists dislike about the WA, but this post is on the Irish ‘Backstop’.
5.
The border can be in the Irish Sea, between the Rest of the UK (rUK), and the whole of Ireland.
Theoretically this could be done, as there are already Border Inspection Points at Belfast (BIPs), which could be extended. This currently allows for a certain percentage of livestock to be checked at the ports. Neither the DUP, nor MPs, would agree to this, as over time, Northern Ireland would become more aligned with the EU, than with the UK, and would in effect herald the breakup of the UK.
It has been suggested that this would provoke violence from the unionists.
6.
The Border could be in the English Channel. This was sort of suggested in one paper last week, maybe jokingly, although I have heard personally of someone mention this.
The theory being that if most of the RoI and NI trade is with the rUK, then this would make sense. However, neither the EU, not RoI would ever take this suggestion seriously.

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 12:28

I wonder how many citizens of NI outside of the elected representatives of the DUP are vehemently opposed to the border being in the Irish sea?
As in, if the people of NI were allowed a vote on where they would prefer a border to be i.e. on the Island or in the sea, whether there would be a 50/50 split or whether a majority wouldn't actually mind the border being in the sea. It's hard to know or guage how hard line the citizens of NI who elected the DUP actually are and whether indeed the DUP are representative of their voters in terms of ideology.

Has a NI vote ever been discussed?

It might

A. provide some guidance as to the lie of the land and
B. give NI a sense of agency over their own affairs and
C. minimise the risk of violence wherever the border goes as it would be voted on by a majority.

Where it could be problematic would be if there was a 50/50 split in which case, we're no further on.

Since the WA has been voted against 3 times by Parliament doesn't give much hope of that proposal being a go at all. Plus obviously we're running out of time at this stage.

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 12:32

Interestingly, on all the discussions on NI on MN I've read over the past year or so, I've not once come across a DUP supporter on here. I wonder whether that is because though people may have voted for them due to historical allegiances, they don't actually agree with their policies? Somebody in NI voted for them - it's strange that not one advocate has ever spoken out in favour of them on MN. MN usually has all sorts. Strange one.

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 12:45

It's a difficult one when NI itself is divided on what it wants.

Apileofballyhoo · 26/08/2019 12:55

I don't think anyone ever gets 100% of the population to agree. A majority is usually considered enough.

Inniu · 26/08/2019 12:59

@Mumsie448

Just on the final option. The majority of Ireland’s trade is not with the UK. Only 12% of Irelands exports go to the UK.

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 13:00

Good point Apile

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 13:04

If there wasn't the lingering threat of violence erupting again, this could easily be sorted. I don't suppose we could get Gerry Adams et al back to the table again to hammer out some sort of post GFA agreement taking into account the new lie of the land..... If they could come to an agreement before, they might be able to negotiate an agreement again (though I accept the GFA tooks years of negotiations and concessions on both sides).

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 13:05

We all know that the terrorists never completely disbanded - the question is, who is their leader now and would they be willing to talk.

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 13:10

theconversation.com/good-friday-agreement-ten-key-people-who-helped-bring-about-peace-in-northern-ireland-20-years-ago-94613

These were the key players in GFA. Could we get together a similar congregation and see if they could sort something out so that the threat of violence is eliminated? Then we could sort this.
A few of those involved are since deceased. Rest are retired more or less. Well, Blair, Clinton, Ahern, Adams still alive but retired-ish.

Bowsy5 · 26/08/2019 13:11

Nobody ever thought McGuinness/Adams and Paisley could reach an agreement. Maybe it's still possible to find a middle ground on this dilemma.