So Johnson has 30 days to come up with an alternative to the backstop......

[Bearbehind]

This will be interesting to watch!

I hope that's right but this tweet from Michael Rosen is a bit worrying.

This then makes the GFA void as it is not possible for the North to comply with EU laws and rules that no longer apply to the North.

It is perfectly possible for the UK to comply with the rules.

The Vienna convention known as the “treaty of treaties” is clear on the point of treaties becoming void if circumstances have arisen that make it impossible for one of the parties to comply.

Again, it is not imposes for the UK to comply. They are choosing not to comply.

Population of ROI is about 5 Million. Vote to leave was 17.4 Million

Are we back to this undemocratic nonsense again? You still haven't answered my question on whether you think the UK electoral system is democratic.

If you look back to your earlier post to Namenic on 25 August you confirmed that Brexit was not the issue, but difference of opinion between terrorist groups on the island of Ireland as to whether or not North and South should reunite was the actual problem.

You xenophobia is showing. I said nothing of the sort, although I did say brexit was not the issue. Your conflation of Irish and terrorist is offensive in the extreme.

Your nonsense is getting ridiculous at this stage. I will ask you one question: are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty bei g broken, particularly are there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU whilst still complying with the GFA (e.g. Norway plus, special economic zone in NI, NI only backstop, UK wide backstop etc)?

@MysteryTripAgain

I know I'm late to this but as a Dub living in the North East I can tell you now that I'm feeling ever more anti Irish sentiment growing. I've lived here 17 years and love the NE but there is a real feeling where I am that Ireland are being difficult and also questioning why we would prefer to remain part of the EU.

Even more disappointing is the lack of loyalty to their fellow Citizens in Northern Ireland. I'm astounded by the amount of people who have quite openly made statements along the lines of - just give it back / it's causing nothing but issues.

I've had to walk away from conversations in the office and in my local pub, shocked at some of the anti Irish shit being spouted.

You do know that Ireland is now a net contributor to the EU?

....and unlike the UK, is proud of being so, as it recognises that it benefits everyone to help develop their economies abd societies - in the same way that Ireland was helped.

In the same way, I have been a higher rate tax payer for most of my career and will be a net contributor to the Exchequer. And we have to pay well over £3,000 in council tax. I don't mind that at all as that us the price for paying due the services for all and for supporting the economy.

In fact, I was annoyed when Thatcher cut the basic rate of tax back in the 80s (when I was still just on the basic rate ).

It is perfectly possible for the UK to comply with the rules

Again, it is not imposes for the UK to comply. They are choosing not to comply

How? If UK is out of the the EU and has no say in EU policies why should they be expected to follow such policies?

I said nothing of the sort, although I did say brexit was not the issue

Your post on Sunday 25-Aug19 14:12:14 included the following:

Brexit is really irrelevant in this

There are unionists (or loyalists) terrorist groups, such as the UVF, UDA etc. They may resort to violence if they believe the union is threatened. Many unionists are against the GFA as they believe it is step towards a united Ireland

Nationalists want a united Ireland....there are nationalists (or republican) terrorists groups, such as the IRA, INLA, etc. They may resort to violence if they believe the GFA is threatened.

How is the above not an acknowledgement that the root of the problem is terrorist groups who don't agree whether or not the island of Ireland should reunite?

Your conflation of Irish and terrorist is offensive in the extreme

Nobody is saying all citizens of North and South are terrorists. That's would be like saying all Muslims are terrorists which is incorrect.

I would have gone with the NI only backstop as that does not hinder free passage across the invisible border. However, your post and those of others have suggested that could lead to violence too from the terrorist groups that see that as a threat to the union.

So if all types of UK leaving the EU result in acts of violence from terrorist groups in either North or South what difference does it make whether the UK leaves EU with a deal or not?

@MysteryTripAgain - If UK is out of the the EU and has no say in EU policies why should they be expected to follow such policies?

It's called integrity. Acting in a way that only partially gives you what you want as you have obligations that prevent you from doing something more extreme. Again, I refer you to the example of Ireland and Schengen.

How is the above not an acknowledgement that the root of the problem is terrorist groups who don't agree whether or not the island of Ireland should reunite?

How on earth is that an acknowledgement that the root of the problem is terrorists? The root of the problem is British policies in NI and in Ireland prior to partition. Nationalists were denied civil rights in NI. Peaceful protest only resulted in innocent people being murdered by British forces. The troubles begun due to frustration at the lack of civil rights afforded to a section of the population. Most people in Ireland and NI have am opinion on unity. The majority are not terrorists.

You keep asking why the UK should abide by rules without a say. I have told you why they should. Your replies imply that you don't believe the UK needs to act with integrity wrt the GFA so I am asking you again: are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty bei g broken, particularly are there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU whilst still complying with the GFA (e.g. Norway plus, special economic zone in NI, NI only backstop, UK wide backstop etc)?

@Givemealittkewan - the anti-Irish and anti-EU attitudes and rhetoric definitely seem to be on the rise. I lived in England in the 80's for a while and found most people to be lovely and welcoming. However, there was definitely a minority of idiots who would give you a hard time. I was always careful about where I went.

I was listening to an interview on Pat Kenny the other day with an Irish academic who works in a leading English university. She was saying the anti-Irish comments have increased dramatically.

There's a interesting article here on a portugese woman's experience - news.sky.com/story/portuguese-brexit-woman-being-hit-and-nearly-run-over-made-me-risk-arrest-to-protest-brexit-11798557

@Parker231- Stewart seems to be the only Tory who is actually putting the UK ahead of his own ambitions.

Yes - and they have been threatened with deselection at the next general election

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ready-for-what-it-is-completely-unknown-brexit-and-the-border-1.4002694?mode=amp&fbclid=IwAR04wh44LuU4YFCkCxTfGTDQWKjeY04LTakpZX4QUoMLOfljHMnL9z_I58o

Can someone explain how there is a border that runs through someone's house?
If the house was there first, when a border was being drawn surely you'd draw it around buildings.
If the border was there first, surely some planning department would say you can't build there.

@Apileofballyhoo - that's an interesting report. It really shows the human side of the problem. I posted this before, but you can see a photo and the history of each crossing here - www.irishtimes.com/news/world/brexit/borderlands/the-border.

@Coolingfan - Can someone explain how there is a border that runs through someone's house?

The border was drawn on a map in London. The sole aim was to maximise territory retained whilst ensuring the ratio of nationalist to unionist in the retained territory didn't pose a threat to unionist power. That's why only 6 of the 9 Ulster counties are in NI.

Have a look at the link in my last post to see some of the crossings. On part of M1, those travelling one direction are in the Republic while those going the other direction are in the north. There is a BBC report on a 6 mile stretch of road where you cross the border 4 times.

You keep asking why the UK should abide by rules without a say

Can't see why the UK, or any country in the World, should be governed by policies it has no say in. One the reasons WA was rejected was that UK would be governed by EU rules,, but without a say in how such rules could be made.

the majority are not terrorists

Nobody has said otherwise.

acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty bei g broken

It takes two parties to agree a deal. Nobody enters negotiations on the basis of cant leave the table until a deal has been made. Once the other side knows you are desperate for a deal you end up with the worst imaginable.

WA was a prime example. It was so bad that T May attempted to hide from MPs the legal advise given by Cox. When it was revealed that the WA could result in the UK being tied to the EU forever. Even remain supporter MPs voted against the WA.

Your post of 25 Aug and those of others refer to minority terrorists groups in North and South that may resort to violence no matter where there is a border, in the sea or on land.

ROI agreed to Article 50 that recognizes the possibility a member may leave without a deal. British Irish council did not follow their duties described in the GFA.

UK has said they won't install a border between NI and ROI. WTO has said they will not require ROI or UK to install a border as WTO is silent in borders.

If ROI chooses to install a border in accordance with EU regulations that represents a breach of GFA by ROI as opposed to the UK. However, my view that the GFA will become void unless it amended in advance of a no deal scenario.

NI only backstop or NI being a special economic zone changes the status of NI and would have to be agreed by consent. DUP argue that it would contravene the GFA.

Norway model requires border control too. Norway plus requires some form of customs union and single market which is the same as what UK has now. So in effect payment of £39 billion is to remain.

@whyamidoingthis I've never had to worry about going anywhere and still don't feel threatened as such. I do however have a strong Dublin accent and people will make comments about Brexit or 'the Irish' to me. Friday night I was in a bar and it happened again. Sat at a table with a friend and the men at the next table hear my accent and off they go.

What's crazy is the absolute crap they are spouting. I'm not going to repeat it here as I live in hope they don't represent the majority of the NE

One thing I do find really interesting though is that it's always men that I've experienced any anti Irish feeling from!

@MysteryTripAgain - British Irish council did not follow their duties described in the GFA.

Again, you are talking nonsense. Based on the pre-referendum rhetoric in the UK, the UK did not intend leaving the SM or CU so Norway plus was the most likely outcome. Once it became apparent the UK had no integrity wrt the GFA, the border was a prominent item on the agenda.

UK has said they won't install a border between NI and ROI. WTO has said they will not require ROI or UK to install a border as WTO is silent in borders.

Again, trying to put blame on Ireland for the bullying actions of the UK. It's also nonsense. Do you really think the UK is not going to have any border controls with any country, as that is what would be required under WTO if they don't have them with Ireland?

Your post of 25 Aug and those of others refer to minority terrorists groups in North and South that may resort to violence no matter where there is a border, in the sea or on land.

You are again showing your ignorance. The terrorist groups are based in NI, not Ireland.

Norway plus would not lead to violence. A UK wide backstop would not lead to violence.

I'm going to ask you again: are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU whilst still complying with the GFA (e.g. Norway plus, special economic zone in NI, NI only backstop, UK wide backstop etc)?

@Givemealittkewan - One thing I do find really interesting though is that it's always men that I've experienced any anti Irish feeling from!

Yes, same here!

I'd say let women run the world but we only have to look at Thatcher to see that's not necessarily a great idea.

Based on the pre-referendum rhetoric in the UK, the UK did not intend leaving the SM or CU so Norway plus was the most likely outcome

Ballot paper was leave or remain. Many different ways to leave, but to maintain fairness then question on the ballot paper had to be equally balanced between leave or remain.

Do you really think the UK is not going to have any border controls with any country

Unlikely, but does not change EU regulations that EU members must have borders with neighbouring non EU countries. Could end up with two borders. One under the vague WTO wording of control of the economic area and one that is in accordance with EU requirements as exist in Eastern Europe.

@MysteryTripAgain you seem to be confusing the word 'fairness' with 'ambiguity'

you seem to be confusing the word fairness with 'ambiguity

Don’t remember using those words. However, always ready to listen to suggestions how to avoid a no deal, but at same time honour the vote to leave EU.

@MysteryTripAgain you've been told many times on other threads of the ways we can leave while avoiding no deal. It's not difficult but requires reasonable negotiating skills by our government. Immovable red lines that aren't a fundamental part of UK's continuing existence are no way to conduct negotiations. Drop them in part and it becomes easy.

@MysteryTripAgain - Ballot paper was leave or remain.

Yes, it was. But the politicians had mainly been talking about a Norway plus style model so it was a reasonable assumption that they would brexit in that manner. Have a look a some of the recent referendums held in Ireland to see how a referendum should be run.

Could end up with two borders

A situation that has only come about due to the lack of integrity displayed by the UK wrt their obligations under the GFA.

I will ask you again: are you happy that your government has acted, and continues to act, in a way that is likely to result in an international peace treaty being broken, particularly as there are multiple ways the UK could leave the EU whilst still complying with the GFA (e.g. Norway plus, special economic zone in NI, NI only backstop, UK wide backstop etc)?

Drop them in part and it becomes easy

Which red lines could be moved or eased to help get a deal passed?

If the UK wants to withdraw from the (internationally recognised) peace treaty that is the GFA, then it should be honest and say that that is what it is doing And that it is consciously choosing to do it, because the version of Brexit that the ERG the Government has decided it wants requires it. - and not continue with the weasel words that it is Ireland's/the EU's/the Remainers' fault .

It should own its decision.

@prettybird - It should own its decision.

Absolutely. The UK would still be lacking integrity by causing an international peace treaty to be broken but it would be exhibiting slightly more integrity than it is at the moment.