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Brexit

Westminstenders: Promises, promises

962 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/08/2019 23:26

Today polling showed that there was a majority in Scotland who support Independence. The 'Boris Bounce' really isn't universal. And this is a firm sign all is not well.

There is talk tonight that Johnson is planning to stay on as PM even if he loses a vote of no confidence in order to force No Deal through and prevent a government of national unity. Instead he would call a 'people v politicians' general election to be held shortly after we'd left the EU.

Johnson's willingness to defy parliament should not be discounted and should be taken seriously. Its highly likely in one way or another. No deal is technically illegal, but its also the default. This does not seem to be fully recognised by remainers. But this is a man who lied and continued to lie. And there is every sign that he would be willing to cause some sort of constitutional crisis. Especially if he really is like Trump. This is what authoritarians do - defy convention and rip up the rule book - because the powers that are suppose to hold them to account are too weak to hold them to account. Something that Johnson has already proved time and again. He has no respect for others.

All the signs are Johnson is in fully into campaigning for a GE already. He's touring the country and ignoring Europe. He's offering money for the NHS - its open to debate whether this is new money - the optics on this are all down to what you want to believe. Those who want Johnson will believe the promise; those who don't won't.

The penny hasn't fully dropped in parliament. There is talk of a vote of no confidence being called by Labour 'at the earliest opportunity' in September. The reality is its too little too late and is unlikely to work to have the desired effect and inside will play right into Johnson's plan. The failure of the Opposition to spot what he was likely to do, has been the story of the last 3 years, where Remainers have been reactionary and unable to anticipate what would happen next. Their lack of imagination and inability to look beyond their own rhetoric has been their undoing and may cost us all in the long run.

Meanwhile in Brussels, the EU unlike our Parliament have recognised the inevitability of no deal and if Johnson wants no deal there is no way to stop it. And that he has no inclination whatsoever to negotiate.

The expectation is still that the EU will have the backstop and the Brexit Bill of £39 billion as the requirement for the opening of trade talks if we no deal.

Which leaves up shit creek.

At the same time the new trade minister Liz Truss is full on libertarian and talking to the US with this in mind.

That would mean a bonfire of rights and standards which will horrify many. That means goodbye to workers rights, food standards and data protection.

The tech giants have the ears of Washington so British ideas of a tax on them are being seen as a block on a US trade deal.

It comes as the UK has joined a US coalition to protect ships in the Gulf - something we were originally given a snub against, and led to Jeremy Hunt saying we would join a European led force. Its not clear what, who or how the US uturn has come about...

Meanwhile our summer holidays are all getting more expensive... and this is just the start of it.

This is real. This isn't a bluff.

OP posts:
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Peregrina · 07/08/2019 20:00

The BBC headlined the Interrail thing as "UK pushed out of Interrail scheme after dispute."

Read the article and you will see:

It added that Eurail Group decided to end Rail Delivery Group (RDG), which represents UK train operators membership of Interrail/Eurail after RDG declined to sell the new product. {Emphasis mine.]

So not quite as the headline but the British (English?) Company has a paddy and decides it doesn't want to play, and is told Go on then, off you go. Very much like Brexit - they really don't need us as much as we need them.

Peregrina · 07/08/2019 20:02

We shall go down in history as the greatest statesmen of all time,or as the greatest criminals

I don't think he expected to go down as the latter. Will this happen to Boris Johnson, and his sorry rabble? Or will they just go down as the biggest bunch of fools?

tobee · 07/08/2019 20:04

It's like gaslighting was a term invented for Dominic Cummings and friends. Suggesting that a Labour-SNP alliance is ignoring the EU referendum result. They are trying to avoid No Deal. Not No Brexit. No Deal was not the referendum. It was explicitly not. Ffs!!!

Hoooo · 07/08/2019 20:26

Exhaustion is right

Icantreachthepretzels · 07/08/2019 20:29

I'm never sure of the purpose of an all England parliament. It would be barely any smaller then WM, it would seem equally distant to most people - no matter where you put it, and honestly one parliament representing 56 million or 65 million - what's the difference?

Considering that of all the regions in England, only the NE has a population smaller than the population of Scotland, it seems a lot more fair and representative if each region had its own parliament. That would actually get rid of the disconnect between parliament and the provinces. Obviously not quite so much should be devolved into English regions - otherwise there is no point to WM - but certainly local infrastructure, services and investments should be put in the hands of elected representatives who actually live there - but have a lot more teeth than various separate local authorities.

wheresmymojo · 07/08/2019 21:18

BoJo is already putting his psyops on my FB feed.

I'm going to take him up on the offer and tell him what I think - probably won't ask again HmmGrin

Westminstenders: Promises, promises
NoWordForFluffy · 07/08/2019 21:36

I had that the other week, mojo. I couldn't be arsed to tell him what I think, however.

bellinisurge · 07/08/2019 21:43

I've not had that yet. I'm taking that as a good thing Grin

peanutbutterkid · 07/08/2019 21:46

I am REALLY missing Brexitcast.
Anyway, Adam Fleming said something in yesterday's soundbites about how for Brussels the 2nd best option (after WA) for protecting EU single market & status quo, is UK Crashing Out.

Brexiters act like Crash-Out is threat to EU, but it's the 2nd best option as far as EU is concerned. EU will let UK get on with Crash-Out since WA not possible. Even though for UK, Crashing out is no better than our 4th best option.

NoWordForFluffy · 07/08/2019 21:49

I've not had that yet. I'm taking that as a good thing.

I'm not entirely sure why I was targeted really! Hmm

prettybird · 07/08/2019 21:55

I'd not reply: I refuse to give him the information that he will then use to his benefit.

DarkAtEndOfUK · 07/08/2019 21:59

but certainly local infrastructure, services and investments should be put in the hands of elected representatives who actually live there - but have a lot more teeth than various separate local authorities

If you create regional power structures like that all you're doing is re-creating WM on a slightly closer scale. It won't make much of a difference to the poor person in, say Mansfield, who can't afford regular trips to Sheffield, whether the power in the region running schools and other services is based in London or Leicester. They can't be representative. It would make a difference if they were based in Mansfield though, and in regular communication with regional hubs and then national initiatives. I think the current county councils are too large and need at least halving, following Northants example.

Britain needs a full and complete investigation into the forms and function of local government and will need to consider the optimum size. I don't think a full overhaul of the complete system has been carried out for years, certainly not one that considers democratic representation.

pamperramper · 07/08/2019 22:00

Wow - those National Socialist quotes. So so similar to Brexit.

pamperramper · 07/08/2019 22:03

At the same time as Brexiters are pretending they're Churchill.

DarkAtEndOfUK · 07/08/2019 22:04

This one reminded me of something else - "It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be molded until they clothe ideas and disguise."

Biological men are women if they feel like it, anyone?
There's so much propaganda these days.

QueenOfThorns · 07/08/2019 22:36

Biological men are women if they feel like it, anyone?

I just can’t see any way that I would ever believe this, no matter how many times you said it to me. (If you said it enough times, I would probably tell you that I believed it just to make you go away.) But biology is my field. However, you could tell me that a square is a circle and back it up with some important-sounding equations and I would be convinced very quickly because geometry isn’t my thing.

So, presumably these techniques don’t work successfully on everyone (you can’t fool all of the people all of the time), but that doesn’t matter, you just have to persuade enough of them?

Mistigri · 07/08/2019 22:46

I'd not reply: I refuse to give him the information that he will then use to his benefit.

You can reply to that Conservative party survey anonymously. They don't check emails.

I used my mum's postcode and a made up email and told them that I was most concerned about the British in Europe Grin. Posted using the WiFi at our holiday apartment so the IP address won't help them either.

TheElementsSong · 07/08/2019 22:52

you just have to persuade enough of them?

I believe that was literally the sum of ThatTwatCummings' strategy for Vote Leave.

Dontlickthetrolley · 07/08/2019 22:58

I'm not entirely sure why I was targeted really!

I had a Conservative one which I marked as spam and said I didn't want to see anymore Conservative adverts! Grin

prettybird · 07/08/2019 23:37

Ds has trans friends (female to male and male to female), who he is very supportive of, but even he says that gender can't trump biology (although I have had to explain to him that there are a few complex intersex cases which aren't so simple) and doesn't think that former men should be able to compete in women's sports Hmm. Pippa York (formerly Robert Miller, first UK winner of the Tour de France's Polka Dot jersey) went to his old school and by all accounts was very unhappy there, so it's a topic we have talked about. Nowadays, the school is very LGBTI inclusive, with, for example, a number of toilets now designated as "Gender Neutral".

But ds at 18 is a lost cause for the propogandists Wink: he's been taught to think for himself, not just by us (his parents) but by his school and (now) Uni Wink

And yes, he's a Remain supporter Grin Couldn't vote in either the Indyref or the EU Referendum, nor the 2015 and 2017 GEs, but was able to vote in the Holyrood, local and EU elections Smile But he refused to sign the Revoke A50 petition as he sees Brexit as the quickest way to achieve Independence (following which he'll probably vote Green).

Icantreachthepretzels · 07/08/2019 23:57

If you create regional power structures like that all you're doing is re-creating WM on a slightly closer scale.

Is that not what all devolved parliaments are? If not - then neither would regional parliaments be. If they are ... they seem to be working in Scotland and Wales (currently not in NI)

It won't make much of a difference to the poor person in, say Mansfield, who can't afford regular trips to Sheffield, whether the power in the region running schools and other services is based in London or Leicester. They can't be representative. It would make a difference if they were based in Mansfield though, and in regular communication with regional hubs and then national initiatives

We can't give every town a parliament, though. And we can't just beef up all the local authorities- there's too many of them, and it would cause too much variation between small towns only miles apart if their authorities had more power to decide actual policy. Planning anything like increasing transport infrastructure and new housing sites would become a nightmare as authorities fought over boundaries, or failed to work together to cross those boundaries. And I don't even want to think of what a mess education would be if every authority could choose to do something different. But having regional parliaments that have oversight of local authorities and were responsible for allocating funding and making big decisions like how much new infrastructure the various towns needed and how to connect them - rather than leaving it to WM - would mean there would be coherence and co-operation across the region, but also that the people involved in decision making were actually people from that part of the country, who knew what the problems were and who cared about the region. It could try to get rid of that left behind and ignored feeling that everywhere outside of the SE feels (though I imagine there are plenty of poor people in the SE who feel it too).

If England is going to have devolved governance then there needs to be a decision on what level to put it. All England is too big (population wise) to represent people any better than WM. County level is too small - it would become unwieldy and expensive balancing that many parliaments. English regions are jussst right.

*Though Education should still be the remit of WM - having different exams in Yorkshire to the ones in the NW would just be daft. I see English regional parliaments as having a similar remit to the Welsh Assembly, rather than the Scottish Parliament.

Peregrina · 08/08/2019 06:49

English regions are jussst right.

I can't see any meaningful reform happening for twenty years. We will be dealing with the fall out from Brexit until then. This might be on of the steps in reforming our institutions so that we prevent dictators (Johnson?) arising again.

NoWordForFluffy · 08/08/2019 07:10

I do idly wonder how much is bluff and how much is real. It's a shit negotiating tactic (my job is negotiation, so I know what works best for me!), but the competence levels of those Ministers undertaking it aren't that great, from what we've seen of them.

We are being shown and told what they want us to, regardless if it bears any resemblance to reality and what they may really be planning. It's a despicable way to treat the electorate and I hope that in future they're punished in the polls and history treats them with the contempt they deserve (not that they'll care about the latter if they're dead, but I suppose they'll probably still be alive when it's taught as modern history in years to come).

NoWordForFluffy · 08/08/2019 07:14

Oh yeah. I came across this on the legal research website I use at work. It's a very recent addition as I don't recall seeing it last time I logged in a few weeks ago.

I didn't have time to have a good look, sadly.

Westminstenders: Promises, promises
Peregrina · 08/08/2019 07:19

On another thread they are still going on about the Millenium bug and Democracy! I decided I would leave them to it.

The Millenium bug may have been overhyped but I got a good well paid job as a result of the preparation we needed to do. My organisation made a root and branch reform of its IT systems, and took the opportunity to bring in much more modern ones. Otherwise we would have been creaking along for another 10 or more years with outdated systems, costing us time and money.