Do British understand how negotiation works?

[Juells]

Skimming the front pages of Sunday's newspapers on the Sky website, I was struck by the offering from the Mail.
storify.com/services/proxy/2/ONg9_h6-BXq4WgxPp5sn8Q/https/media.fyre.co/e74WQJOQSprxUyUqGAxw_mail.JPG
"Boris opens EU hostilities"

From the outset, the UK has adopted a really aggressive stance in the negotiations, making jokes about cherry picking, having cake and eating it, using every insulting term for the EU it was possible to think of. Fury when the EU negotiated in its own interests rather than seeing everything from the UK's viewpoint.

Who negotiates trade deals like that? I'm bewildered, genuinely, can't understand it. Why is the British government approaching it in such a weird way? Trade deals are based on good will and mutual benefit.

To the rest of the EU, two things stand out. First, David Davis's laughing rejection of an agreement that had been signed hours before, his explanation to the British press that it wasn't legally binding. Secondly, the British attitude that the Good Friday Agreement can be ignored once it's inconvenient. An international agreement, which the British signed up to; on which peace in NI depends.

Who insults the people with whom they want a good deal? How can anyone trust your word?

agree, not after.

As much as I despise Sinn Fein and wish they would, as a one off, take their seats and , as 7 valuable parliamentary votes, stop this shitshow - why should they? They don't recognise the authority of Westminster over their area nor would they ever swear loyalty to the Queen (which you have to do as a UK MP) That's no news to anyone . Not their circus etc etc.
I would love them to resign en masses and cause by-elections that SDLP would win . SDLP would take those seats. But that is my own unicorn so it's pointless.

Irish here. Not surprised in the slightest. Feel like we can scream 'you see what we've been dealing with all this time?!?' to the rest of the world and they all get it now.

Sinn Fein campaign on absenteeism and have done for over 100 years.

Indeed and had the first woman elected to Parliament in 1918 in Constance Markiewicz, who of course, didn't take her seat.

I think the big problem is that the British government's approach to these negotiations seems to be a continuation of the attitude back in the days of the empire when "negotiations" consisted of gunboats and an invasion.

Yes. The people that voted for Brexit, and favour no deal, are deluded about how important the UK is now. We did have immense military might, then a lot of influence. We're heading to a place where we have no influence, a failing economy and that tends to lead to violence and unrest. I think NI is the canary. I don't think the rest of the UK will escape violence.

It's the lack of experience in the post-Empire world. In the EU we have 1000s of officals doing this sort of thing wit hthe rest of the world on our behalf. SO as has been said, IF this fuckwittery is the blueprint for post-Brexit negotiating skills it will be.....er...difficult.

Without being party to the details and dynamics of the GFA, it required a U.S. Senator and the promptings of a U.S. president to get it down.

You can only imagine the Americans repeatedly saying "Okaaaay".

I think it's partly British arrogance and partly British insularity: it is so easy here for people to forget the rest of the world really exists. I don't fully understand it when we do have other countries here, but somehow people just close their minds. London is noted for its ignorance of the rest of the country even. There's also the way life is treated as a game to be played. The weird and particular British class system and snobbery means that everyone has to appear a certain way and boost each other's egos in a certain way. People who don't do that don't get very far in the British system any more. Actually most people who aren't cushioned by wealth and social connections don't get far in the British system. It all results in a collective self-absorption and inability to comprehend that other people are not playing games: the higher up the social ladder you get the worse it gets.

Don't refer to it as the British System because it's very much an English system. Look how much interest the public school toffs show in Wales, Scotland and N Ireland i.e. none.

Correction accepted!

I wouldn't describe TM treatment of the EU as 'being nice'. The very first thing she should have done was unilaterally confirm the rights of EU nationals living here, no conditions. Start off showing good will and respect for people. Instead she tried to use these people as some sort of negotiating chip, despicable behaviour.

Adam Fleming was summarising the latest EU briefing (among negotiators) on British position. But no further info availalble. I need Brexitcast to mull over it all more. Weanh!!

If they won't accept a trade border on the Irish Sea, here's a video/photos showing the difficulty of having a physical border between ROI and NI. (Apart from all the other issues that would come from a hard border)
www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/images-invisible-irish-border-show-18830481.amp

We were known as perfidious Albion a long time before we rewrote ourselves as all stiff upper lips and fair play.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidious_Albion

Over 208 public roads crossing the ROI/NI border.

In comparison, there are 137 land border crossing points on the entire eastern border of the EU

Problem?

The Irish border has its own twitter account - twitter.com/BorderIrish

Here's a couple of photos of border crossings in the old days.

Blibbyblobby

We were known as perfidious Albion a long time before we rewrote ourselves as all stiff upper lips and fair play.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidious_Albion

I hadn't realised that this term was used outside Ireland. Thanks for this, it's fascinating.

I hadn't realised that this term was used outside Ireland. Thanks for this, it's fascinating.

The Scots have used it a very long time!

@Superlooper - that video may be from an Irish newspaper, but it's very carefully couched to be from the British viewpoint.

Another English person embarrassed to be English right now.

Unfortunately there is still a reasonable percentage of English people who are caricature Little Englanders. Mainly Tory members and voters - I say this as I've been hanging out on Tory online forums lately and the same kind of attitude abounds.

They are very blinkered, largely brought up just as the war was ending or just after it had ended. They are stuck in 1950/60s Britain.

That's not to say all Tory voters or all people of this generation but a proportion of them.

I'm going to Spain in September and have ordered an enamel pin which I will wear that makes it clear none of this shite is in my name. That's how embarrassed I am!

To think...a few years ago I was so proud to be British.

...and yes, I say English rather than British in most places as this seems a purely English affliction.

I wouldn't describe TM treatment of the EU as 'being nice'. The very first thing she should have done was unilaterally confirm the rights of EU nationals living here, no conditions. Start off showing good will and respect for people. Instead she tried to use these people as some sort of negotiating chip, despicable behaviour.
Exactly! Niceness or even just plain old respect has been missing from the very beginning.

I actually think that extending the 'divorce' metaphor we're acting like an abusive husband.

Just game playing, threats, gaslighting and narcissism.

Unfortunately there is still a reasonable percentage of English people who are caricature Little Englanders. Mainly Tory members and voters - I say this as I've been hanging out on Tory online forums lately and the same kind of attitude abounds

Agree with this. In fact when David Cameron first spoke of the in/out referendum I thought "what are you doing that for, people will vote to leave" and I was right. There is a little Englander mentality - even my DH suffers from it to an extent, although he voted remain for economic reasons. But he was brought up on WW2 films. Even though my father fought in WW2 he would have voted to leave, but he said we voted to join a common market, not a political union, I doubt he would have been happy with no deal and although he was racist, he wasn't anti-German/European, he didn't like the immigration into the Northern towns by brown people and he was intelligent enough to know they weren't from the EU.

But I live in a very safe Tory seat and although the town I live in is a commuter town for London and I suspect voted remain, the overall result in the constituency was very close (still remain), and the rural areas are definitely little Englander. There is a restaurant we like going to nearby and its clientele fits into the affluent Tory little Englander demographic 100% (except for us!) They definitely want us back in the 1950s when everyone was white and women knew their place.