How will this rift ever be healed?

[Bearbehind]

Emotions around Brexit are always going to run high but I genuinely don’t see how the divide can ever be bridged.

Anything less than no deal and the hardcore Leavers are never going to stop talking about breaches of democracy.

No deal and all the signs say it’s going to go to rat shit.

So where do we go?

[bellinisurge]

@Tullow2016 , actually it's what the EU offered for NI.

[Lonelycrab]

But the Iraq war didn’t cripple us economically. It had no meaningful impact on our day to day lives.

[MaxNormal]

Also the Iraq war wasn't something that we voted on, which made it much less contentious.
I for one have never forgiven that murderer Blair for it though.

[bellinisurge]

@Tullow2016 the EU offered it but our red lines wouldn't allow it because apparently everyone in tbe UK is tied to NI with an irrevocable bond. As you can tell by the deep knowledge shown on here about NI. Or, tbe DUP with whom the Tories are in hock in Parliament don't like it.

[Stillstrawberrywater]

Iraq affected daily lives here, inspiring home grown terrorists to perform those attacks in London and Manchester.

[MindyStClaire]

If you look at countries that have had civil wars it takes 3-4 generations to recover.

And NI has only had 20 fragile years...

Bellini's suggestion was the EU's (and thus, Ireland's) suggestion from the start, once it was clear the UK wanted to leave the SM and CU.

It would allow life here to carry on much as it has done, and allow us to continue to build peace. Yes, it's a bit of a fudge, but we're used to it here. And if properly operated it could be a huge boon to the region, let's face it, NI is due some good fortune. No, the DUP don't like it (and in fairness, I can understand why, but they did campaign for leave so my sympathy is limited) but the unionist community as a whole would accept it I think. Apart from Remain, it's the only option for NI.

the EU offered it but our red lines wouldn't allow it because apparently everyone in tbe UK is tied to NI with an irrevocable bond. As you can tell by the deep knowledge shown on here about NI.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

It had no meaningful impact on our day to day lives

It did. The wars in Iraq and Afghan were directly linked to the global crash, it led to the advent of ISIS and it may not have affected your life, but it certainly did mine and the other military families I know!

[bellinisurge]

@MindyStClaire , I bet you 50p (all I have) that Johnson will go for this. Just as he is playing tbe Big Man with the EU, he's also doing it with BeLeavers. Only they are too infatuated to see it. He's a huckster. That's what he does.

[MindyStClaire]

In my calmer moments I do think you're right bellini, that it's all bluster and he just needs to win an election to ditch the DUP. Actually, I think there'd be enough rebels across the aisle to pass it without that, but that' also a high risk strategy.

I do have the fear though. I doubt BJ really gives a shit about NI in truth. But hopefully the fear for his legacy will save us.

[bellinisurge]

That's what I'm hoping too @MindyStClaire . His ego won't let him be the PM that fucked us all.
He doesn't give a shit about NI and would dump the DUP as quickly as he could. All it takes is a few people on the other side of the House to back a renamed NI only backstop.

[Lonelycrab]

I wasn’t suggesting that the mess created by Blair had no consequences. It was an awful turning point for global stability but for most people there were minimal changes in their day to day lives.

People didn’t lose their jobs then homes. People’s weren’t forced further into poverty. And as a pp said, there was no vote from the public to get us into that situation so therefore I think it is not the same as what we are facing now.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

My mistake for reading quotes out of context.

Incidentally I think had there been a vote we'd never have gone into Iraq. I was on the massive march in London on my 21st birthday carrying a "not in my name" banner about Iraq (before I met DP, he's an Iraq veteran and very much is affected).

I feel similarly about brexit. Not in my name. Because the undercurrents of racism/xenophobia are the impression people have of leave voters. I'm fully aware it's not true, but they've done nothing to stop the xenophobes (Farage, Johnson, Robinson) being the loudest voices for Leave.

[probstimeforanewname]

So NI would be in the UK, but with same benefits as being a member of the EU

Yes. And I have said a million times on here - it is a logical outcome of a situation where most residents of NI can be Irish and therefore EU citizens.

non-EU territory full of EU citizens = special situation.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

non-EU territory full of EU citizens = special situation.

Scotland could argue the same.

Hence thinking it will break up the UK.

[probstimeforanewname]

Scotland could argue the same

It could have done had to voted to leave the UK while the UK was still in the EU. Which was why I always thought all the scaremongering about it not being allowed back into the EU was exactly that. Non-EU territory full of British passport holders with laws completely in compliance with EU law.

But they can't argue they are in the same situation as NI. Scottish residents do not have the right, in general, to the passport of an EU member state. They are the same as England and Wales in that respect.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

It could have done had to voted to leave the UK while the UK was still in the EU.

I think it would have, had the UK government not given a cast iron guarantee that voting to remain in the UK was the only guaranteed way to remain in the EU. So the vote was thrown, significant and material changes have occurred meaning we have the right to hold an Indy 2.

I think the result will be very, very different.

NI and Scotland both voted to remain, one cannot be given assurances without the other.

The UK is fracturing. All because of hubris and arrogance from Westminster.

Karma.

[bellinisurge]

Scotland isn't the same. I remember Salmond trying to pull that one and it doesn't work.
Scotland, unlike NI , or indeed Wales , is not a conquered nation. It doesn't need that argument to make the case for independence. It has its own unique situation which may or may not convince Scottish voters when they inevitably get Indyref 2.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

It's not the same, and I never said it was.

But Scotland are routinely told, you're smaller than us, so we make the decisions.

Well NI is smaller yet, so whether it's right or not, there will be many people pissed off if the smallest nation gets exceptions made for them, because it suits Westminster, and Scotland doesn't.

Is it right?

No, probably not.

Do I care?

Nope.

[probstimeforanewname]

NI and Scotland both voted to remain, one cannot be given assurances without the other

It's not about who voted to remain. You misunderstand my posts completely. Millions of people in Wales and England voted to remain too, and we are as stuffed as those in Scotland who voted to remain.

BUT NI is a different case because the people who live there can remain EU citizens. That is not generally the case in the rest of the Uk although there are of course a lot of people with EU passports. Therefore it has to be the case that NI is treated differently from the rest of the UK.

Whether Scotland decides to call another indyref is a different point entirely. But they cannot claim to be the same as NI. However, my point was, if they had voted to leave the UK, they would have been in a analogous situation to NI for much the same reasons - nobody there would have immediately had a Scottish passport, so you would have had a territory outwith the EU, full of EU citizens, in compliance with EU law as I said above.

Whether people in Scotland were told staying in the UK was a way to stay in the EU is irrelevant to my argument (as well as being wrong, as Cameron said there would be a in-out referendum in 2013 so the risk was always there).

[Bluegrass]

I just feel thoroughly fed up and ashamed of this country. I still struggle to believe the stupidity and hubris of thinking that the most monumental decision in our lifetime with huge socio-economic consequences could possibly be embarked upon on the basis of a tiny majority of an advisory referendum which couldn’t even properly and honestly tackle the question of W hat those consequences might be.

We are now faced with having to undo over 40 years of economic, legal and social union with our largest trading partners and strategic allies - a task that quite clearly demands years of microsurgery to accomplish with any sort of order but which, because of the insane politics at play, we are trying to accomplish in months with what amounts to a blunt axe.

The irresponsibility of imagining for a moment that this is a reasonable way to run one of the world’s larger economies is staggering.

Having just said goodbye to friends who are leaving the Uk because of Brexit I find myself increasingly thinking what used to be unthinkable...wondering whether our family has a future here too.

I look around at an angry embittered insular little country run by the least impressive and competent set of ministers (and opposition) I can remember in my lifetime and find that the love and pride I used to feel for this place has all but gone. It’s profoundly depressing.

[Tullow2016]

So the vote was thrown, significant and material changes have occurred meaning we have the right to hold an Indy 2

Until Brexit happens there is no material change.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

probstimeforanewname I've never said we'd claim to be the same and I'm bowing out now since the knowledge you have of Scottish politics is about as good as your Irish history.

Cameron's government were the ones who said it was a guarantee.

Westminster lied to keep Scotland. Fuck knows why since we're forever told we're not wanted.

But that's a fact.

It's also a fact that written into the original legislation was the right to hold Indy 2 in the event of significant and material changes. Scotland voting to remain and being shut out of Brexit negotiations meets that criteria.

So I guess what I'm saying is Westminster can do as it pleases, as it always does.

NI and Scotland do not have to fall in line and do as they are told.

Having spent a total of 5 years being told that the only voice that counts is the majority (after Indy ref and Brexit ref), I'm scunnered with it now.

Let the majority in Scotland speak and we'll go from there.

What NI does is up to them, as it always should have been.

Westminster has had more than enough chance to treat the union and members of the union with respect and as equals. They chose not to.

It will come back to bite them.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

It's also true that Cameron and his cronies didn't for a second think the electorate would be stupid enough in England and Wales to vote to leave the EU.

[Tullow2016]

Scotland voting to remain and being shut out of Brexit negotiations meets that criteria

Until Brexit happens there is no material change to anyone or any member state of the UK.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

Tullow2016 hence wanting No Deal now despite voting and campaigning for remain during the run up to the referendum.

Getting more than a little tired of being told what's what by people who weren't arsed about Scotland in any way before this.

As the polls are suggesting Scotland is too.

We have a potential way out, why wouldn't we take it?