Democracy???

[nooddsocksforme]

It seems unbelievable to me that either Hunt or Boris could be our next pm. For all those people who say a second referendum is undemocratic , what about the fact that who is the next Pm, and will potentially allow us to leave with no deal, will be decided by a group of entitled and self interested Tory voters. There is no democracy in evidence there.
The backstop is a huge issue but everyone seems to have forgotten about Scotland. The current debacle , which shows Tory politicians more interested in their own agendas than the future of this country, and a non existent opposition party , will inevitably lead to Scottish independence in my opinion. Scotland voted to remain, and has no time for this self serving , entitled attitude to government.
Will there then be a hard border between England and Scotland. Where will Ireland’s loyalty’s lie. Will England become increasing isolated and xenophobic

I don't know each of the 70 Countries that EU has already set up deals with or the remaining 125 that EU has not.

So you are basically admitting you don’t have a clue then.

Do you actually think we are only able to trade with 70 countries currently?

The point being that although it might not have tipped the balance to remain it certainly would have brought it closer, and if the influence of foreign money had been investigated rather than quashed by Theresa, that is another quantity of voters who may well have voted differently

All crystal ball words being used such as "might not have" and "who may well have"

Hence the comment:

I am amazed and impressed by your powers. You can clearly see into the future AND read people's minds. Even people you have never met

and

We can't always second guess how people would vote

The comment

but I am not a mean spirited shit who is hell bent on destroying the good things about the UK

Is there any evidence to show that is what the 17.4 Million who voted leave are aiming for? Or is it another example of being able to read minds and forecast the future with certainty?

Obviously not as anyone who could do that would rule the World and not be bothered about Brexit as too busy wondering how to spend their Billions of Billions.

I don't know each of the 70 Countries that EU has already set up deals with or the remaining 125 that EU has not.

Your arguments would be more convincing if you could name one or two.
I think e.g.that after 3 years someone managed to mention VAT on sanitary protection, which I believe we are not allowed to lower when we have put the rate up. Many of us think it should not be VATable anyway. If that is correct, wouldn't half the population of the EU stand to benefit, so wouldn't that be something worth staying in to press for?

I say I believe, because I haven't read the legislation and time and time again it's found that it's not EU legislation, that the UK has implemented legislation with a few embellishments of its own. Or alternatively it's found that it's international legislation which happens to have come via the EU adopting it first.

You know what, looking at the behaviour of the Brexit MEPs over the last few days I would just kick the UK out of the EU without a deal. France will do it soon. They will loose patience with us.

We won't even need Boris to do it I reckon.

OK VAT is a Law and not a trade deal, but I think that makes a similar point.

We first need to look at where the law originated - we can hardly claim it's an EU law and we want nothing of it, if the UK proposed it. If it's international law we would adopt it anyway. Then we need to look at what the EU law actually says, and what the UK implementation of it says to see if the onerous bits are the EU 'dictating' or the UK government 'dictating'. Once we have satisfied ourselves on that score then it would be more legitimate IMO to talk about making our own laws. (Most of which we make anyway, being nothing to do with the EU.)

Farage would have to find a job. Especially if the EU stopped his pension. A bonus of Brexit.

Who are those excluded?
British citizens who have been abroad for over 15 years. How is it democratic to take away their rights AND not allow them a say?

British citizens who have been abroad for over 15 years. How is it democratic to take away their rights AND not allow them a say?

How many such persons fall into that category? About 5 million UK persons live abroad, but how many over 15 years? What certainty they would vote remain?

{Is there any evidence to show that is what the 17.4 Million who voted leave are aiming for?}

The problem is that No one knows what the 17.4 million actually want, as you all want different things. Many of the things 'you' say you want are mutually exclusive or impossible. Try making a list of say 10 items with your 'besties' and see what you come up with, then check if they are possible. Unless there is some consensus somewhere you can't have 17.4 Million 'customised' versions of leave.

British citizens who have been abroad for over 15 years.

Who Cameron had promised to enfranchise. Some promises it seems can be quietly ignored but others are cast in stone and must be delivered at all costs.

No certainty (although Costa del Sol pensioners are a minority - most are workers). Whatever their allegiance they deserved the right to vote. Many of them will lose jobs, money and even more thanks to Brexit. It is not democratic that they were not allowed to vote.

The problem is that No one knows what the 17.4 million actually want, as you all want different things.

I am in a social group where 20 or so of us have had difficulty in deciding where to go for a meal out, with some wanting one thing some another and one person having a complete strop at not getting her way and leaving the group altogether. Now imagine that multiplied 850000 times and you can see something of the problem.

@LifeContinues - As for exact names I don't know each of the 70 Countries that EU has already set up deals with or the remaining 125 that EU has not.

Let me help - here's a list of countries the EU has free trade deals with, as well as those in progress en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements

Pick a country not on the list and let us know what they can offer the UK and what the UK can offer them that is not possible as part of the EU

LifeContinues presumably won't have to do this.

But at some time those charged with negotiating our Trade Deals are going to have to. Talking about 'the easiest trade deals in history' hasn't seen a great flood of countries lining up to do business with us.

{ Talking about 'the easiest trade deals in history' hasn't seen a great flood of countries lining up to do business with us.}

And with BoJo suggesting that the UK refuses to pay the £39 Billion that the UK owes, the other countries won't be rushing to do deals with a UK that even suggests they won't pay. Using a 'Cash On Delivery' system isn't very practical these days especially as the UK Pound is likely to become even more volatile with each twist and turn of this farce.

life is just demonstrating exactly what pisses Remainer off so much - a complete lack of ability to read behind the slogans.

Throughout these threads he/she has been going on about trade deals which will see the UK prosper, to the extent that we grow faster than any other other EU country, and yet it turns out he/she doesn’t even know who we currently have deals with, let alone what other deals we want.

Surely, even if only admitting it to yourself, there comes a point when you realise you are saying stuff even you can’t support and decide it’s best to stop saying it.

To IsThisAFreeName

Any of the Countries marked in yellow or pink as deals not yet fully concluded and still up for grabs.

USA
Australia
India
Saudi
Indonesia

The Countries marked in Green, other than Japan and South Korea, that EU has an agreement are nothing to get excited about.

Greenland
Mexico
Ukraine
Turkey
Iceland
South Africa

Yes well, May and Johnson made a great fanfare of running to India to discuss Trade Deals. They came back with considerably less publicity when the Indians said Trade Deals - more visas for us.

@LifeContinues - and are you going to answer the second part of the question? What can they offer the UK and vice-versa? My understanding is that India would require a deal that provides large numbers of visas to Indians wishing to go to the UK. The US will require a lowering of food standards to allow their products be sold in the UK.

Equally, I'm not sure why you are so dismissive of the other countries with whom the EU have trade deals. Many of them are big exporters of food. The UK is not self-sufficient so needs to import food.

The UK hasn't been self sufficient in food for a long time. I think it's something like a century and a half now. We have always also been reliant on imported labour for the harvesting of the crops we do grow.

The days when East Enders went hop picking in the summer holidays are gone. Just imagine how a bunch of Bankers from Canary Wharf would cope!

The UK hasn't been self sufficient in food for a long time. I think it's something like a century and a half now

It’s shocking just how unaware many people are of this. We couldn’t sustain our population in 1939 when there were only 47,000,000 people.

My understanding is that India would require a deal that provides large numbers of visas to Indians wishing to go to the UK

No issues with that. I have worked in India several times I can vouch for their ability. A population of that size has to have some very capable people.

The US will require a lowering of food standards to allow their products be sold in the UK

No issues with that either. Worked in USA for 2 years and have visited USA many time on holiday. Their food has not made me ill. So all this nonsense about chlorinated chicken is just to scare people as EU does not want people to be offered cheaper alternatives as is exposes their cartel. Same with Australian beef being hormone treated. I currently live in Malaysia and a lot of food comes from Australia. Has it made me ill? Never.

Japan and South Korea are not major exporters of food.

Greenland exports a lot of fish products, but once out of the EU the UK will be able to source themselves

Mexico export fruit, vegtables and coffee

Ukraine exports mostly minerals and petroleum products

Turkey is more into apparel and textiles

Iceland exports fish products, but UK will be okay for such once fishing is returned to UK

South Africa export is mostly gold, diamonds, minerals, machinery, cars.

{but UK will be okay for such once fishing is returned to UK}

Largely a 'red herring' in the EU debate because the value of the fish is so low compared to the other industry of the UK. While it has a 'feelz' factor, it is not going to make a significant difference to the UK GDP.

The majority of Brits don't like the fish species caught in UK waters and most is traded directly to Europe.

Has it made me ill?
Oh for goodness sake, it's not about whether it personally makes you I'll you know. We are talking about long term health consequences for everyone not about your digestion. Maybe actually read up about it before making inane comments?