Democracy???

[nooddsocksforme]

It seems unbelievable to me that either Hunt or Boris could be our next pm. For all those people who say a second referendum is undemocratic , what about the fact that who is the next Pm, and will potentially allow us to leave with no deal, will be decided by a group of entitled and self interested Tory voters. There is no democracy in evidence there.
The backstop is a huge issue but everyone seems to have forgotten about Scotland. The current debacle , which shows Tory politicians more interested in their own agendas than the future of this country, and a non existent opposition party , will inevitably lead to Scottish independence in my opinion. Scotland voted to remain, and has no time for this self serving , entitled attitude to government.
Will there then be a hard border between England and Scotland. Where will Ireland’s loyalty’s lie. Will England become increasing isolated and xenophobic

life what makes you think anything you’ve listed will happen when it never happened before?

As for the comment about growth being faster outside the EU - you do realise growth is faster in developing countries right?

And what do we have which will allow us to grow faster than the EU?

Can't remember any horse race being ran a second time as the winning horse did not win by a big enough margin.
But plenty of winners have been disqualified when cheating came to light!

But plenty of winners have been disqualified when cheating came to light!

No evidence of cheating in the 2016 referendum by either remain or leave otherwise it would have been declared void. 3 years after the event is a bit late to suggest otherwise.

And what do we have which will allow us to grow faster than the EU?

Freedom to negotiate trade deals with others. As a member of EU neither the UK nor any other EU member can implement its own trade deals. Trade negotiations are manged by EU on behalf of the EU members.

Not true that there is no evidence- it is still being investigated. The fact that so many voters were excluded however, means that whatever the conclusion it cannot be considered a fair race.

Freedom to negotiate trade deals with others Why would one small nation be better at negotiating than a union of countries? 😄 You call this freedom I call it shooting ourselves in the foot!

life I’ve posted this on another thread but it’s clear all you are bothered about is saying you won. You haven’t stopped to think what ‘winning’ means.

And after 3 years that’s ridiculous.

You’ve mentioned trade deals again above but still can’t name a single country we want to trade with and can’t now. Or how we will get a better deal as a small country on its own.

It’s so tiring that Leavers still just see things in isolation and haven’t even started to join the dots yet.

{It’s so tiring that Leavers still just see things in isolation and haven’t even started to join the dots yet.}

Exactly. 3 years and they can't work out that they are not going to get much or even anything of what they say they want, but bugger up everyone else in the process.

@LifeContinues - No evidence of cheating in the 2016 referendum by either remain or leave otherwise it would have been declared void.

The leave side were fined for cheating. However, unlike a general election, the result of the referendum cannot be challenged in an election court because the vote was advisory rather than binding.

Interesting article in the Irish Times (www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-is-britain-turning-blind-eye-to-leave-side-s-lawbreaking-1.3568256%3fmode=amp.

Not true that there is no evidence- it is still being investigated

Bit late considering Article 50 was voted in by 500+ MP's over two years ago. Can't see the legal profession entertaining a back dated claim to disqualify the result.

Like that guy who tried to sue BoJo about the 350 Million being paid to the EU. Both Judges concluded that it was a political move and nothing else.

The fact that so many voters were excluded

Who are those excluded? All over 18s were eligible to vote if they were UK Citizens living in the UK along with those from the commonwealth Countries who are resident in the UK. Even expats who had lived outside the UK for less than 15 years could vote by post.

www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-is-britain-turning-blind-eye-to-leave-side-s-lawbreaking-1.3568256%3fmode=amp

Written on 18 July 2018. Two years after the Vote in 2016 and more than a year after Article 50 voted in by 500+ MP's.

life, could you possible answer the queries about trade deals please?

You’ve repeatedly mention them, not least to say that they are how you think our economy will grow faster than any other EU countries.

Surely therefore you can name countries we will trade with and what we want / can offer that we don’t already.

And if you can’t, why do you insist on quoting that all the time?

{ All over 18s were eligible to vote if they were UK Citizens living in the UK along with those from the commonwealth Countries who are resident in the UK. Even expats who had lived outside the UK for less than 15 years could vote by post.}

Yes in theory, but in practice many were excluded through incompetence, deliberate or accidental and the numbers involved would have taken the result considerably closer to 50/50 and most UK citizens living abroad use aspects like FoM heavily so likely to vote to remain.

All good points but

North Sea Oil revenue never seemed to make a difference to the UK.

Norway spent theirs on a Sovereign wealth fund. The UK didn't. Why not? We were actually converting to North Sea gas in the early 70s when we were only just entering the EEC, so I don't think the EEC can have the blame for the UK choosing to throw its wealth away.

A fortune spent on the Falklands War in 1982. Another fortune spent on the Miners Strike in 1984/1985.

And the EEC/EU dictated this how? Or political dogma at home?

Council houses sold off cheap. Companies like British Telecom and BP sold off cheap to make people feel good in the short term as there was a quick overnight profit to be had.

Same comment as above.

Spending money on wars playing follow the leader with USA cost another fortune.

Now Trump is sabre rattling about a war with Iran. Macron and Merkel are trying to get him to reign the rhetoric in. Who are we the more likely to follow?

...most UK citizens living abroad use aspects like FoM heavily so likely to vote to remain.

Don't assume that. The pensioners in their little English enclaves on the Costa del Sol, could just have easily have voted Leave because they brought their home mind-set with them. They might get a nasty shock when they find their health care is not paid for, and whoops, suddenly their pensions are not uprated.

Why would one small nation be better at negotiating than a union of countries

Because the EU cartel would not be able to interfere by imposing regulations that prevent the sale of cheaper alternatives in the EU.

You’ve mentioned trade deals again above but still can’t name a single country we want to trade with and can’t now

At present EU has trade deals with about 70 Countries out of a total of 195. EU members are not permitted to implement trade deals on their own and trade negotiations are managed by EU on behalf of their members. Once free of the EU the UK it entitled to approach any other Country.

Exactly. 3 years and they can't work out that they are not going to get much or even anything of what they say they want, but bugger up everyone else in the process

Makes the assumption that UK will be worse off which has yet to be seen. If UK concludes that leaving the EU was not a good idea they are entitled to apply to rejoin.

but in practice many were excluded through incompetence, deliberate or accidental and the numbers involved would have taken the result considerably closer to 50/50

Wow! So LeClerc knows for certain that all those who were excluded from voting would have voted remain. How can you know that?

To Perigina

Post about what UK had done with money in the past was a reply to LeClerc comment that UK could have solved many of the current issues faced by UK in the last 30 years, but did not. UK 's decision to squander a fortune on Wars, Strikes, etc., were not EU membership related.

{..most UK citizens living abroad use aspects like FoM heavily so likely to vote to remain.
Don't assume that.}

No, I qualified my original statement aware that some fuckwits in the 'Costas' most likely did vote to leave. I saw the brief documentary about it and was ashamed that they are British.
The point being that although it might not have tipped the balance to remain it certainly would have brought it closer, and if the influence of foreign money had been investigated rather than quashed by Theresa, that is another quantity of voters who may well have voted differently.

{Makes the assumption that UK will be worse off which has yet to be seen.}
The UK is ALREADY worse off and it hasn't left yet.
Are you accusing the business leaders in Japan and elsewhere of making up stories when they express great doubts about investing in the UK. Bear in mind that ANY future trade will be negotiated in conjunction with the EU due to WTO rules and the UK will not be able to strike BETTER deals than the EU has already secured. This does not mean no trade, but trade at a disadvantaged rate, and still having to comply with EU quality and specifications.

{Once free of the EU the UK it entitled to approach any other Country.}
The WTO rules make it a lot more difficult to 'just' do that and involve years of negotiation. Any product or service that might be negotiated, if it is also 'traded' by the EU, The EU have to be present in the negotiations and can veto or otherwise 'upset' any deal.
If it is dealing with other trade blocs, similar complexities apply, it's not just the EU involved.

No, LifeContinues - they were not Brexit related issues, although from your original post that is not clear. However, what makes you think that a country which for at least 40 years has chosen to throw money away or fight lost causes, is going to have the necessary change of heart? As for growing economies - I understand they
are outside the EU and N America, so a matter of geography or throwing in our lot with the Americans isn't likely to help the UK.

Mention of the Falklands is interesting. How many people who fell for the jingoism of the Falklands war even had a clue where they were? I bet 90% didn't. I did, I did A level history and every now and again 'the Falklands Question' bobs up and we happened to cover one of those periods.

LeClerc,
Please explain how you know how people who did not vote in the referendum would have voted ?
My son and his wife were away on holiday and did not vote. Do you know how they would have voted?

I am amazed and impressed by your powers. You can clearly see into the future AND read people's minds. Even people you have never met.
Are you a superhero or just an arrogant idiot?

We can't always second guess how people would vote. MIL reads the Daily Mail from cover to cover and hates immigration. A prime candidate for Leave? No, she voted Remain and thinks that those of her relatives who voted Leave are stupid, because she can see, even if they can't, that their jobs are likely to be on the line.

Who really wants to trade a blue covered passport for a job paying a steady wage? Is the blue cover going to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads?

Coppersulphate
Use your 'Masters degree' and read what I actually said. I expressed my views as either conditional or partial, accepting that there are variables but you, being a hypocrite who said you were not returning to the Brexit boards have returned and mis quoted what I have said.
I may be an 'idiot' but I am not a mean spirited shit who is hell bent on destroying the good things about the UK.
Seeing the picture of the Brexit party MEPs being so disrespectful in Strasbourg makes my blood boil.

At present EU has trade deals with about 70 Countries out of a total of 195. EU members are not permitted to implement trade deals on their own and trade negotiations are managed by EU on behalf of their members. Once free of the EU the UK it entitled to approach any other Country.

So name one, along with what they can offer us and we can offer them that we couldn’t whilst in the EU.

Seeing the picture of the Brexit party MEPs being so disrespectful in Strasbourg makes my blood boil.

Mine too. As one commentator said - they won't be turning their backs on their salaries and pensions.

No surprise though that a party which Farage fronts copies the Nazis - the Breaking point poster was also straight out of the Nazi text book.

So name one, along with what they can offer us and we can offer them that we couldn’t whilst in the EU

Any of the 195-70 = 125 Countries that EU does not yet have trade deal with. As for exact names I don't know each of the 70 Countries that EU has already set up deals with or the remaining 125 that EU has not.