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Brexit

Westministenders: The start of our fourth year of fun

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 24/06/2019 10:47

Do you remember when politics was boring?

This week we have had a Tory MP recalled, a Tory MP caught on film appearing to assault a protester and our likely Tory prime minister caught on tape having a serious row with his girlfriend which resulted in the police being called.

This is a government with a majority of 3 (with the DUP).

There are apparently 100 MPs who are not on board with no deal, but its not clear how far they will go to try and stop this. We do have Dominic Grieve stating that if Johnson is elected leader he will not become PM as he will not have the confidence of the house and can not go to the Queen to say he has. He has recently said he would resign the Tory Whip if necessary, which he has not previously said. The government has only to lose 2 more MPs for it to lose its majority...

It is important to remember that until Johnson goes to the Queen, May remains PM and retains the powers of the office. Could he become leader but not PM?

This crisis would most likely lead to a GE. The only real question would be over the timing over this. Would it be immediate or strung out over the summer? At this point this does look highly likely before October.

If the Tory moderates get their way, then the ERG hardliners hit back and do the same thing even with the looming threat of the Brexit Party or a Remain surge.

Its hard to see how we AVOID Brenda from Bristol being tracked down for a rent-a-quote. And there is a strong possibility of another Tory Leadership Election before the year is out, under several scenarios.

Meanwhile the EU Brexit Team has largely broken up, with most of its lead players having new personal priorities with internal EU elections. Our biggest ally in Tusk will no longer be there to protect us, so EU politics post 31st October could look quite different, and less favourable, to the UK.

Whilst the talk around parliament from seems to indicate that the UK will look for another extension (and this includes from Camp Johnson), this is very inward looking. At some point there needs to be a wakeup call that the EU want us out, and will be prepared to force us to no deal whether we like it or not.

Equally the idea that we could have a PV is also dependant now on EU good will, as we've faffed about for so long with Tory Brats. And relies on the EU still being keen on another referendum. Will this come to a head with the EU saying no and shattering the hopes of the other side of the house?

At this point, what happens with the Withdrawal Agreement? The idea that the withdrawal agreement is dead isn't quite as clear cut as you might think. If its a choice in parliament on the very last day of No Deal v the Withdrawal Agreement what will they do? Will they recognise the moment? Certainly I think there are a few opposition MPs who HAVE started to notice this is a possibility this time around. Its still largely unspoken though. No one wants to acknowledge political reality.

We still haven't hit the wall of reality. We avoided in March. But its still there and no going away.

I think there are two things we can count on over the next few weeks; more outrage and chaos and a slow dawning of the realisation that May was dreadful, but it really could be worse.

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Clavinova · 25/06/2019 10:46

BigChocFrenzy
Cross post - your link is March 2018 - who is Richard North?

BigChocFrenzy · 25/06/2019 10:47

We also need to remember when Karlsson talks of his experience re the Norway / Sweden border:

Norway is in the Single Market;
it belongs to EFTA
it has in addition, about 100 bilateral deals with the EU to make trade more frictionless
for goods, the border still has 1-2 hours delay and queues and lorry parks

Brexiters / ERG would not allow NI to join EFTA or the Single Market
So the 2 cases are very different anyway

1tisILeClerc · 25/06/2019 10:49

{Apparently not - Lars Karlsson is a member of the technical panel for The Alternative Arrangements Commission - they had a conference in Westminster yesterday.}

Since a significant number of HoC, cabinet and others are easily shown to be liars or fantasists they may as well be having a tea party in Westminster, The EU and WTO won't accept it.

Motheroffourdragons · 25/06/2019 10:49

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

DGRossetti · 25/06/2019 10:54

Cross post - your link is March 2018 - who is Richard North?

No disrespect, Clavinova but anyone who has been an alleged regular poster on these threads for more than 2 weeks, let alone 2 years would not need to ask that question. Well, not if they had been reading what people like BCG and RTB had been posting. I take it you haven't then ?

Or am I being too harsh ? I place myself in the judgement of all other thread regulars .....

BigChocFrenzy · 25/06/2019 10:54

clavinova Karlsson has not suddenly become an expert on all the other issues during the last year
His basic plan is unchanged since the HoC appearance

He has not tackled any of the other issues RNorth listed, because he cannot
Neither can anyone else - technology does't exist to do so

fyi:
R North has been a Leave campaigner since 1975, who later joined UKIP

He worked with Farage as a special advisor in the EP and advised Tory Brexiter Owen Patterson MP,
but now says both are wilfully ignoring facts

He is a well-known Leave figure, respected for his wide knowledge about the technical aspects of Brexit

Peregrina · 25/06/2019 10:55

I am astonished that you don't know who Richard North is Clavinova. Do a bit more googling. If you can't be bothered, he's a long time Brexit supporter but favoured a single Market option, and at least did his homework about what was involved.

Clavinova · 25/06/2019 10:56

1tisILeClerc
Since a significant number of HoC, cabinet and others are easily shown to be liars or fantasists they may as well be having a tea party in Westminster, The EU and WTO won't accept it.

Do you think the EU are liars and fantasists as well? Are their assurances regarding the Irish backstop genuine (i.e. the border issue can be resolved within the 21 month transition period) - or are they plotting against us?

1tisILeClerc · 25/06/2019 11:00

With the possibility of war between Iran, the USA and 'allies' which strong and stable UK Prime minister would you like to see being in charge of the situation, especially given BoJo's 'efforts' in Iran?

Clavinova · 25/06/2019 11:00

I am astonished that you don't know who Richard North is Clavinova. Do a bit more googling.

I did google him before I posted - I was being a bit facetious - his blog is over a year old in any case.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/06/2019 11:02

You don't have to have read these threads

Any Leaver or Remainer who actually wants facts and reads widely will keep finding the name of RNorth as a very curmudgeonly but highly regarded expert source on Brexit

He's been in at least one recent debate on iirc Beeb radio, but is too rude when politicians are stupid / lie to be invited often

Clavinova · 25/06/2019 11:03

1tisILeClerc

Why are the EU peddling the myth that the Irish border issue can be resolved within the 21 month transition period - surely they are contributing to the unicorns?

DGRossetti · 25/06/2019 11:03

I did google him before I posted - I was being a bit facetious - his blog is over a year old in any case.

And the referendum is 3 years old. You point being ?

BigChocFrenzy · 25/06/2019 11:03

clarinova I repeat:
in that year, the facts and Karlsson's lack of expertise in all the other areas, his lack of answer to them, have not changed

1tisILeClerc · 25/06/2019 11:07

{Do you think the EU are liars and fantasists as well?}

No, they are being responsible and looking after the welfare of 450 Million citizens as best they can.
They don't think the border issue can be 'resolved' in 21 months, which is precisely why they are insisting on the backstop.
Quit the 'victim' mentality, the EU is not plotting 'against' the UK but at the outset they thought the UK would negotiate the DEPARTURE THAT THE UK WANTED, but it seems the UK have descended into a pack of willy waving teenagers on drugs.

usuallydormant · 25/06/2019 11:08

www.larskarlsson.com/?p=5298

Mr Karlsson also says on this website

However, to implement this proposal with no infrastructure at all at the border there must be a maximum level of trust between the two countries on each side of the border.
HmmGrin

BigChocFrenzy · 25/06/2019 11:08

Rubbish, clarinova The EU have said the backstop is the insurance policy for NI
Barnier has talked about ways to make the backstop less noticeable

The EU have said clearly that - until this magic tech has been invented -
the backstop will be need to be activated if the UK govt choose a future trade deal that does not include staying in the Single Market and having additional Customs Arrangements with the EU

1tisILeClerc · 25/06/2019 11:09

{I did google him before I posted - I was being a bit facetious - his blog is over a year old in any case.}

Like most of the shit you cut and paste.

Mistigri · 25/06/2019 11:09

I've been news watching the last couple of days and there is more and more acknowledgement of trade-offs - it's still subtle but it's there for the first time.

I'm increasingly confident that we are not heading for no deal.

Anyway - North is one of the "original brexiters" - no committed Brexiter would be unfamiliar with the name. Don't agree about his infallibility though - he is knowledgeable, for sure, but other people with expertise take issue with quite a few of his points. Plus he's a ghastly climate change denying misogynist. If you want sensible takes on Brexit there are many better options.

Mistigri · 25/06/2019 11:11

Basically I can't believe that any brexiter would be ignorant of North unless they were a very recent recruit to their current Brexit-shilling role.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/06/2019 11:13

"Why are the EU peddling the myth that the Irish border issue can be resolved within the 21 month transition period -"

They are not

You may have read that the ERG claim the NI border could be solved in that time

The EU have talked of ways of making the NI backstop less noticeable if activated.

Clavinova · 25/06/2019 11:14

BigChocFrenzy
in that year, the facts and Karlsson's lack of expertise in all the other areas, his lack of answer to them, have not changed

He has answered - November 2018:

Smart Borders 2.1–How we can solve the Brexit Irish Border Challenge?The Missing Piece

"The missing piece of the puzzle"

"During this period I have noted that two of the most important components of the Smart Border 2.0 model that I describe in my report were not fully understood by many people."

"My conclusion is that I should have been more detailed and clear in my report.Some of the things that I took for granted as common knowledge, apparently were not known by non-experts."

"I have clarified my proposal in the hearings with MP:s in the House of Commons and House of Lords..."

www.larskarlsson.com/?p=5298

Clavinova · 25/06/2019 11:16

North is one of the "original brexiters"

I wasn't an original brexiter myself - I almost voted remain in 2016.

Mistigri · 25/06/2019 11:18

Why are we still talking about smart borders?

Even if the tech existed, which it doesn't, it'd require a feasibility study and then 5-7 years to implement (minimum) like all major infrastructure projects.

We've got four months.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/06/2019 11:19

"but other people with expertise take issue with quite a few of his points."

They deny his claims that the EU has no demos and is undemocratic
And most of his constant whinges against the EU

They don't deny his points about the NI border, or the severe impact on the UK trade & economy

Leavers want information presented by a (rightwing) Leaver, so they don't get what they fear is Remainer bias
Many just refuse to believe Remain / Guardian sources

His climate change views are part of his hard right views, but not relevant to Brexit, other than they show he is certainly not one of the liberal elits