"I told you so...." (pt. 94)

[MockerstheFeManist]

Bridgend plant to close.

All you Welsh Brexit voters, happy now? The days of the internal combustion engine are drawing to a close. The future is electricity and hydrogen fuel cells. The investment will go where the markets are largest and most stable.

Brexit is a lot like climate change: You cannot attribute any single economic event exclusively to it, but it means there will be more of them more often and they will be more severe.

Nissan and Toyota workers, be very afraid.

first and foremost reform needs to start by removing the NHS from politics completely (but that's a whole other discussion)

How the heck is that going to get more community nurses, GPs Physio's Occupational therapists, nurses, surgeons, operating theaters etc etc ?
Only more funds train these people and provide facilities, nothing else.

Govt's are responsible for an effective HC system, they are therefore answerable to its failings... it is political and it always will be and rightly so, politicians need to be accountable at the ballot box.

Govt's are responsible for an effective HC system .....
NHS funding is part of 'politics' as are all public services

Well that's a sure fire way to not have an NHS at all in 20 years time then.

{Well that's a sure fire way to not have an NHS at all in 20 years time then.}
Well 'leavers' need to decide what they want and who to vote for.Although leaving will not automatically mean that the NHS is trashed, it will take a VERY strong UK government to prevent it and thus far there is no sign of that happening, considering that after 3 years no one really knows if people want to be in or out.

You'll have to explain that logic Time

The NHS is a political construct born out of the demand for affordable HC, following WW2,

Had it been fully funded since then, it wouldn't have the estimated 100,000 staff shortfall.

Well that's a sure fire way to not have an NHS at all in 20 years time then

Sorry, I am not at all sure of your argument there.

Good news is that NHS is so valued and precious to us British, that that those who want to destroy it lost in Peterborough last night.

Still enjoying that one.

You'll have to explain that logic Time

The logic is it’s not working, the NHS football just gets banged around the park by whichever party is in charge before it’s passed on to someone else for a kick around. No much actually changes for the better, despite what is promised.

Take your enjoyment when and where you can woman

You don't seem to like or understand this country very much time. The NHS is one of our proudest achievements and it still is.

You couldn't be more wrong Woman. How on earth did you reach that conclusion?

Time

My Mum used to tell me what healthcare the ordinary person on the street got before the NHS...if you had no money or relatives, you died on your own, minor aliments were left on treated, the elderly were left in their own shit en masse.

For all its faults, to go within a few years & change that completely was a fantastic achievement, it also led to some very rapid treatments following medical advancements during WW2.

Of course its been used as a political football but whose fault is that? who has chosen not to fund it properly and to make the correct reforms over time?
Not training enough nurses is a total failure of Govt (lab and con) and would have happened whatever healthcare model we had.

Much like other woes the UK faces, we blame the wrong things, we blame the EU or in this case the NHS as you ve done with "its not working"

You should talk to my DD who has just finished her first NHS placement, the cuts in community care/physio/OT have led to suffering and far higher costs down the line.

Of course its been used as a political football but whose fault is that? who has chosen not to fund it properly and to make the correct reforms over time?

Exactly my point, it hasn't been funded properly by Governments for at least the last 25 years, what makes you think that's going to change? It needs radical reform starting now or the alternative is to sit back for another 25years (or sooner) until it's completely on its knees and not functioning.

A Royal Commission would be a start point.
www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1621

Why does it need radical change? Why does it need a Royal Procrastination Commission? Why not just fund it properly?
Because it means raising the level of taxation and politicians no longer have the skills to explain this without losing votes. It's a sad world we live in where lots of the population expect something for nothing. Put income tax/national insurance up and fund the NHS properly. It's not complicated.

{the NHS football just gets banged around the park by whichever party is in charge before it’s passed on to someone else for a kick around. No much actually changes for the better, despite what is promised.}

So a total fail by UK governments for many years who see the NHS as a 'burden' on the UK economy rather than an asset where a healthy productive UK citizenship is 'cheaper' in the long run.
Other countries accept that a healthcare system IS expensive, but if you took a wider view and considered a life experience from cradle to grave it can be managed FAR better. Breaking bits off to make a quick buck has been the way that the UK governments have made it appear to improve.
Given the right impetus the NHS could be the true 'shining light' where not only are the citizens of the UK 'happy and healthy' but to gain income, could be training nursing and medical staff to 'spread the word' worldwide.
I proposed months back that the UK gov should plough many billions into making the NHS what it ought to be, leading the world. To do this, workers who stand to lose their jobs when the UK leaves could be retrained to do the various building trades and be part of a massive integrated network that considers everything from birth to death.

Exactly my point, it hasn't been funded properly by Governments for at least the last 25 years, what makes you think that's going to change? It needs radical reform starting now or the alternative is to sit back for another 25years (or sooner) until it's completely on its knees and not functioning.

And leaving the EU is going to help how?

Like the old Morcambe and Wise sketch with Andre Previn, the UK is playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order, with the result being great inefficiency and the individual tragedies of those who 'fall between the gaps' where different 'departments' would prefer to take each other to court or be sued rather than just getting things organised. There is no satisfaction in an elderly person dying in the cold alone, because services that should be taking responsibility simply argue between themselves.

How can we make 'new deals' while still in this Brexit mess? Once we are out then we can make deals with ALL counties and not just the EU

{How can we make 'new deals' while still in this Brexit mess? Once we are out then we can make deals with ALL counties and not just the EU}

Your simplistic 'argument' here simply doesn't work on planet earth.
There are trade blocs and rules governing everything and 'just being out and starting again' is just so naive it is bordering on ridiculous.
As a member of the EU, the UK has many of the best deals with 70 countries for the stuff the UK actually wants to trade.

How can we make 'new deals' while still in this Brexit mess? Once we are out then we can make deals with ALL counties and not just the EU

suwi which countries do you mean? What products are you thinking of?

Leavers continually trot out this line about trade deals but I’ve yet to hear what we want that we couldn’t have before?

Or how we will get better terms than we could whilst in the EU?

Bear - you beat me to it. I was just going to ask what products we wanted to trade?

I don't think we will be offering steel to the world somehow.

{I don't think we will be offering steel to the world somehow.}

Saying that, the UK COULD have by realising that 'bulk' steel was going to be made cheaply and in vast quantities by China etc, so by buying in 'low grade and changing the plant capabilities to process it further (value added) to make specialist steels (something I believe particularly Sheffield was known for).
In a way, emulating the activities of Switzerland where due to the terrain 'bulk production' was never going to really compete, but the activities like high precision watchmaking, low (er) quantities, higher price as a model.
The UK had a skilled workforce, but it has let things slide and with automation/robots etc, the advantage the UK had has dissipated.
These failings are a combination of government and senior management in not keeping an eye on technical progress around the world.

Why does it need radical change? Why does it need a Royal Procrastination Commission? Why not just fund it properly?

Because we are working with a 70s model, it's not working is it?

They are not funding it properly because they haven't got to grips properly with what is needed long term.

• just throwing money around is a plaster to cover a wound when what is needed is an operation.

I would gladly pay more in taxes but I would need to be sure that that my money, as in any investment, is being properly spent in something that is going to last longterm and pay dividends for future generations.

@time4chocolate
70's model? What does that mean? Do you mean we had higher taxes in the 70's so it was funded properly? The fundamentals are exactly the same; people get ill, there are treatments available and they need to be funded. Unless you are suggesting that we shouldn't try to fund everyone now, I don't understand what you're getting at.

{I would gladly pay more in taxes but I would need to be sure that that my money, as in any investment, is being properly spent in something that is going to last longterm and pay dividends for future generations.}

Handing over 'control' and profits to American companies is not the way to do it. As a guess, 1 in say 40 UK citizens is involved in some way towards the 'NHS' welfare of all, whether it is a surgeon, or someone making the wheels for wheelchairs, so it is logical that it should be the UK who are in control of the whole system and ensure that it is the UK and partners in the EU, with who we share a lot of things in common benefit the most.
The USA is interested in profit only and they have no concerns about denying the UK if it suits them. Their laws and regulations are different and state 'America First'.

Jason no, I mean that was the last time there was any type of sweeping reform (I could be wrong and I have to confess I haven't double checked this but I have 70's in my head).

But how will Leaving the EU change anything in the NHS for the better time?