To ask Remainers ...

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Your views?

Brexiteers were asked their reasons the other day. So I would like to ask Remainers

• what do you think will happen, and what are you so afraid of?

Fishing rights were 'lost' due largely to the incompetence of one Nigel Farage who was not doing his job.

I doubt he has that much power - ministers appear to haggle over quotas;

www.independent.co.uk/environment/fishing-stock-quotas-2019-eu-scientific-recommendations-cod-seabass-scotland-a8691521.html

{I doubt he has that much power - ministers appear to haggle over quotas;}
You are obviously deliberately missing the point.
He should have been saying that the quotas should not be part ant parcel of the individual boats. Yes of course he should have been negotiating properly and established the same rules, but he was in the pub instead.
Overfishing results in no fish for anybody. If ultimately those fishing quotas were lost then as a government representative he should have ensured proper recompense for the UK fishermen and the towns they 'support'.
Whichever way you cut it, UK government is failing in it's duty to UK citizens. It has been failing for decades, long before the EEC/EU.
It's not going to suddenly change now.
There is a good reason that the Australians refer to the 'British' as 'whinging poms'.

I was speaking to someone who started their career in the Foreign Office and then moved to Trade & Industry, yesterday. A secret Brexiteer, and we only talked about the economics of why Brexit is a rational choice.

The Greek economy contracted by 30%, the worst decline of a developed economy in history. Italy has stagnated for two decades. Youth unemployment is catastrophically high throughout Southern Europe - compare to the unemployment levels of UK. Public indebtedness in France continues to mount to crisis levels despite Macron’s willingness to use chemical weapons against protestors against his limited austerity measures. Leaving this political construct that distorts the markets is surely not an act of economic vandalism.

Nearly 8% more people voted Leave than Remain, even after a massive propaganda effort by the establishment which greatly violated Venice Commission rules. By the standards of referendums on challenging subjects, that is actually pretty clear and convincing.
Has the endless drive towards more and more EU had never had proper consent given from the UK population? The electorate has wanted less EU since the late 1990s (British Social Attitudes surveys) yet the minority elite of all 3 central parties have driven through more and more.
When you ride roughshod over the electorate, eventually it fights back.

Northern Ireland is a manufactured issue. IF UK does not enforce a border (which they wouldn't), what incentive has Ireland to enforce a border? None. So who would enforce a border? If a border was enforced by a 'third party', what does that say about Eire being a colonised outpost? The EU is more shaky than people give credit for.

Regarding overfishing, has anybody read 'The Tragedy of the Commons'?

The overfishing is a tragedy of the commons scenario.

In socialist construct which is what the common fishing policy is, the cost of exploiting a resource is not carried by anyone. There is no cost whatsoever for Spanish and French trawlers to come in and fish British resources to their hearts content. (My husband was a youthful officer in the RN. Once they had to rescue the crew of a trawler that had caught so many sand eels, it sank itself) In private ownership of property, the cost of exploiting a resource is carried by the owner (ie, UK) and therefore they manage their resources in a balance between extraction and conservation.

"The tragedy of the commons is an economic problem in which every individual has an incentive to consume a resource at the expense of every other individual with no way to exclude anyone from consuming. It results in overconsumption, under investment, and ultimately depletion of the resource."

[this is also at the root of the problems of the NHS, ]

{The Greek economy contracted by 30%, the worst decline of a developed economy in history. }

Maybe the Greek government should have made a better job of managing it's own economy. Tightening the rules and preventing shipping and other industries from paying taxes that should have been due would be a start.
It is easy to pick specific instances where being an EU member is not as good as it could be, this is natural as the resources available to each of the EU28 are different.
If the countries of the EU were 'ruled' by one all powerful government who could dictate what people did and where the EU as a bloc could be very efficient in terms of global wastage. Countries that are naturally 'best' at certain activities should be encouraged to do that. So Germany makes card. Greece makes olive oil and 'hosts' sunny holidays, France, Poland etc grows crops, rather than each country competing and trying to keep 'naturally' inefficient activities going.
But the EU isn't like that.
The UK has very little to offer that is 'unique' so leaving a community that is keen on cooperation will just end up being the 'odd one out' and not being able to benefit from shared resources.

Maybe if the UK were more cooperative it would have achieved more.

That should have said 'escaping paying taxes'.

Once again uk fisheries issues both in terms of quota allocation and sustainability have been driven by UK government incompetence - not by the EU
lifeplatform.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Fishy-Business-in-the-EU.pdf

which greatly violated Venice Commission rules

Remind me, which campaign violated the Venice Commission guidelines by overspending, resulting in the maximum fine permitted by the Electoral Commission and one of its directors being referred to the Met Police?

And which campaign’s most significant donor is currently under investigation by the NCA?

The Greek economy was hammered by its failure to collect taxes and its attempts to live beyond its means. It should not have been allowed into the Eurozone in the first place and it was foolishness to let the Greek economy in until it was in a stronger position.

{The Greek economy was hammered by its failure to collect taxes and its attempts to live beyond its means.}
And one of the problems in the UK is???
No one is 'perfect' but it is the attitudes towards making life as good as possible for everyone that is important.

I agree @1tisILeClerc. But there should have been tougher rules on economies seeking to join the Euro (if they wanted). It was seen as a mark of European pride with reality of running a multinational currency less important than being part of a multinational economy.
I voted Remain. I would again. If we end up leaving (with these No Deal clowns, who knows) and the price of coming back is joining the Euro, I'd need to think even longer and harder about my vote.

The Greek experience is set out by Leavers as an example of how poorly the EU handles things - wants countries in for expansion/vanity projects but can't help them when they struggle .

Northern Ireland is a manufactured issue. IF UK does not enforce a border (which they wouldn't), what incentive has Ireland to enforce a border? None. So who would enforce a border?

Will you please get it through your head that border controls would not be optional.

They would either have to be enforced or both the EU and UK would have to offer the same deals to the rest of the WTO

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

{The Greek experience is set out by Leavers as an example of how poorly the EU handles things}

There is of course a problem in that a significant part of the EU project is to unite people, and financial activities are necessary to make this happen. The EU does not have full control of the running of sovereign countries and there will always be some who push the 'boundaries'. Running a 2 tier EU has been suggested but nobody wants to be in the second tier.
With hindsight everything could be better, but that is not the way the world works. If Adolf's mother had had a headache, WW2 might never have started.

{ IF UK does not enforce a border (which they wouldn't)}
Theresa has been saying 'Taking back control of our borders'. If for this reason alone there 'must' be a border if it is in her definition of 'Leaving the EU'.

{ IF UK does not enforce a border (which they wouldn't)}
Theresa has been saying 'Taking back control of our borders'. If for this reason alone there 'must' be a border if it is in her definition of 'Leaving the EU'

I always knew that was all hot air, as there was a land border between N Ireland and ROI, and a very tricky one at that. But any such questions were shot down as 'Project Fear' by Brexiteers.

I threw up a bit in my mouth at the idea that Northern Ireland issue a manufactured issue.
Utter stupidity. You should be ashamed that you think that.

Northern Ireland is a manufactured issue. IF UK does not enforce a border (which they wouldn't), what incentive has Ireland to enforce a border? None. So who would enforce a border?

It’s this kind of dishonest, underhand argument that gives leavers a bad name. It’s disgusting.

It’s this kind of dishonest, underhand argument that gives leavers a bad name.

I agree with this. The NI issue is what divides honest leavers from the charlatans.

Also that stuff about the tragedy of the commons was bilge (the sea is "commons" whether it's U.K. fishing boats or foreign ones exploiting it; this is not what creates the incentive to over-exploit the resource).

Given all the talk about 'Taking back control of our borders' are we now to believe that they didn't mean all the borders and the correct phrase should in fact be 'Taking back control of most of our borders' ?

are we now to believe that they didn't mean all the borders

And specifically are we to believe they didn’t mean the only land border the UK has with the EU?

Because that would be a strange turn of events, wouldn’t it?

There is also the obvious point that the UK never 'lost' control of it's borders. You need ID to enter the UK and into the EU.
You are not able to turn up at an airport or ferry port and just 'walk on'.

{UK has with the EU?}
Don't forger Gibraltar.

Whoops sorry

Northern Ireland is a manufactured issue

Offs.