Westministenders: The Only Election That Matters - The Tory One

[RedToothBrush]

Fallout from the Euro Elections makes for interesting reading for the leadership hopefuls.

Its not a clear cut as some make out. There is still a case for a deal. The trouble is passing it through parliament. And there is no time to do that. Nor no will.

Any new leader's priority isn't going to be a deal. Its going to be avoiding a General Election. And thats going to be hard.

We are also realistically facing the prospect of another extension which France is likely to block leading to no deal or no deal.

Or a 2nd Referendum.

A 2nd Referendum might be the only way to avoid a General Election. And that will still have no deal on the ballot. Of that you can be sure.

Peter Foster of the Telegraph remarked this morning that in fact the only way to a deal now, might well be via no deal, because of all the routes we have exhausted through incompetence. And that will come at a very high price.

Can prospective jurors really be made to say how they voted? I thought the secrecy of the ballot box was sacrosanct.

Perhaps the Boris case will make some politicians think twice about advocating that crashing out of the EU without a deal will be painless and making false statements about how easy it will be to carry on trading on WTO terms. Politicians making false promises is one thing but repeatedly making false claims and misleading the public whether through lack of knowledge or just plain lies is just shameful.

Can prospective jurors really be made to say how they voted? I thought the secrecy of the ballot box was sacrosanct.

I can imagine jurors being asked to complete a questionnaire agreed by defence and prosecution under oath. Not as to how they voted (that would be too far) but whether they are a member of any political party and if they have had any involvement with the Leave or Remain campaigns. Although it would be pretty unprecedented.

That said, some US jurors opposed to capital punishment are excluded from capital trials - which seems a bit deck stacking to me.

Jury nullification is a fundamental - if rarely encountered - part of English law. Something (again) mysteriously missing from our civics classes.

That's a fair point! The 'most countries trade on WTO rules' lie could do with being put to bed once and for all. Considering we know Matt Hancock has told the cabinet he cannot guarantee that people won't die if we crash out, any mp/ MEP found agitating the people into thinking they want a wto brexit should be looked on particularly dimly.

Tbh all they would need to do is look at their Fb account profile picture - you can usually tell a hardcore leaver by the Union Jack/Poppy/Brexit arrow/George's Cross or soldier poem...

Remainers recently seem to have the EU stars around their heads (if they are making a point). Perhaps a little harder to spot in the wild .

Perhaps the Boris case will make some politicians think twice about advocating that crashing out of the EU without a deal will be painless and making false statements about how easy it will be to carry on trading on WTO terms.

That isn't what he's before the beak for.

Either way though - leavers hate the Tories as much as the rest of us, so perhaps not such a big consideration? Although I did see one today saying he wanted the remain lot (Osborne) prosecuted for lying about the recession

Re Boris and the offence of misfeasance in public office.

The thing I find a bit coincidental is the fact that there was a public consultation on changing this law on 5 September 2016.

To be fair there was a background paper along these lines in March 2016. The final recommendations are due in Autumn 2019.

It just seems odd that the offence is a centuries old common law offence, knocking around for years, and then around the time of the referendum all of a sudden mutterings about reforming it gather momentum.

But I'm a suspicious old bat.

www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/misconduct-in-public-office/

DGR:

USS Farragut NCC-1647: Ship on which James Kirk served as a phaser station operator. Attacked by the dikironium cloud creature, which killed half the crew. The ship never appeared on screen and was never given a class or registry number.

NCC-2021: Transported several genetically enhanced humans to Deep Space Nine

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek_Starfleet_starships

Just catching up on the days news and answering the important questions about Star Trek ...

Lonely glad I’m not the only one who stereotypes I throw in football team badges (can be team dependent) and men in caps into the no deal pile. Remainers seem to favour animals particularly cats. I think dogs at polling stations seem to have a distinct whiff of remainer too although I’ve no idea why I think this.

Also in response to this question.. Anyone know why Boris in particular has been singled out for litigation there were numerous politicians of all shades involved in ‘busgate’ ?Gove, Farage ?

I remember reading about this. To use an MP as an example the prosecution team of lawyers looked at a number of possible candidates to make an example of. There were 2 reasons for Boris .

1. He was mayor as well as an MP. There's some issue about if MPs count as being in public office. The mayor role gives another peg to base the claim on.

1. Because of Boris's extensive media coverage there was extra evidence to examine and potentially use.

As I've said before if I was interviewing someone for a job I'd think twice about a candidate who was having to instruct lawyers on two court cases. One case to unravel assets of high net worth individuals from a 25 year old marriage and the other to prepare to defend complex criminal proceedings. Gathering the info for those two cases alone is a full time job, let alone trying to run a country in crisis. I wonder if the ex's Allegra , Petronella , Anna and Marina have contributed to the crowd funding for the prosecution?

Also in response to this question.. Anyone know why Boris in particular has been singled out for litigation there were numerous politicians of all shades involved in ‘busgate’ ?Gove, Farage ?

I remember reading about this. To use an MP as an example the prosecution team of lawyers looked at a number of possible candidates to make an example of. There were 2 reasons for Boris .

1. He was mayor as well as an MP. There's some issue about if MPs count as being in public office. The mayor role gives another peg to base the claim on.

1. Because of Boris's extensive media coverage there was extra evidence to examine and potentially use.

As I've said before if I was interviewing someone for a job I'd think twice about a candidate who was having to instruct lawyers on two court cases. One case to unravel assets of high net worth individuals from a 25 year old marriage and the other to prepare to defend complex criminal proceedings. Gathering the info for those two cases alone is a full time job, let alone trying to run a country in crisis. I wonder if the ex's Allegra , Petronella , Anna and Marina have contributed to the crowd funding for the prosecution?

Is anyone else thinking that Boris will gain more support, not less because he is being "picked on"?
This may backfire.

Why is he allowed to run for the leadership if there is a court case against him?

Yes, a citizens assembly is what happens when a population is completely divided and politicians cannot or will not stick their necks out and lead.

Better a citizens assembly than decades of poisoned public discourse, or no public discourse at all, just mendacious memes, slogans on buses, and manipulation of social media, with the economy slowly disintegrating.

foreignpolicy.com/2019/01/05/a-jury-of-peers/
...the Irish experience shows that if a government is receptive, an assembly can not only deliver quite dramatic policy recommendations on issues that once seemed intractable but also allow citizens to air differences in a noncombative setting, fostering learning and gradual social acceptance. The model could be widely adapted, including for a potential second Brexit referendum. Ireland is already considering convening another assembly to address antiquated gender roles ensconced in the Irish Constitution. Citizens’ assemblies don’t seek to replace traditional government institutions. They can, when judiciously used, make them work better.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Assembly_(Ireland)
Full overview of the Irish Citizens Assembly.

It is surely preferable to a situation where Nigel Farage and the far right can make a mockery of the concept of public discourse by means of social media, and lies on the side of buses can outweigh fact-based discussion.

Is anyone else thinking that Boris will gain more support, not less because he is being "picked on"?

No, not really

Is anyone else thinking that Boris will gain more support, not less because he is being "picked on"?

Not from anybody sane. But these are Tories we're talking about!

So who’d be on this citizens assembly? Where would it be located? How would a woman with caring responsibilities (and it is generally women) in The North East be able to join a 7 day a week assembly based in (probably) London?

Presumably there would need to be a number of regional Citizens’ Assemblies sending delegates to a National Assembly. The U.K. population is much bigger and (arguably) more diverse than the Irish one.
But it would take an exceptional personality commanding huge political support to set up such a consultation and see it through. All our institutions are beset by prevarication, incompetence, infighting, impracticality and an inbuilt tendency to ensure nothing is done by kicking the can down the road. As we see with Brexit.

{...the Irish experience shows that if a government is receptive, }

Well that's blown it for a start.
Theresa has had the ear of most of the world leaders over the last 2 years who have unanimously said Brexit is a bad idea and yet she has persisted although being quite close to the fence with her talk of 'close continuing relationships' as she knew a 'balls out no deal' will truly destroy the UK. Failing to get this through to Cabinet/HoC/general public is her fault as she did not communicate effectively.

Is anyone else thinking that Boris will gain more support, not less because he is being "picked on"? This may backfire.

Yes. All this will do is entrench the Brexit and Remain camps into their respective positions. It won’t convince anyone, much to the frustration of many Remainers.

It also risks the tables being turned and Brexiteer taking Remainer to court for something or other....

I think it would be reasonable to argue that the EP elections across the EU have shown that many want reforms and will push hard for them. NOW would be a good time to declare 'Remain' and pile in with the other 27 to make reform happen.
There is a risk at this point that with a change in leaders and MEPs the harm that the UK is causing to many others will harden their resolve to kick the UK out.
All of the EU citizens are paying (although not necessarily directly) for the UK's folly, to the tune of many hundreds of Pounds a year per person which is not making them happy.

Rod Stewart's doing well ( his birth name)

@PolhomeEditor
I’m told that in the first 10 hours since launching his campaign website today, Rory Stewart’s leadership campaign has raised £23,000, most of it from £10 and £25 donations.

In all, he has raised £90,000 in the past week and has capped individual donations at £10,000.

Sources say he is “reaching beyond the traditional Tory fundraising base of city and finance” by attracting donors from the farming community, tech entrepreneurs, retail figures and people from sport and entertainment.

Gove's Chancellor?

It also risks the tables being turned and Brexiteer taking Remainer to court for something or other....

I'm not sure this is likely. Given the rather unique combination of factors in the Boris case, which has allowed the door to be opened for this case to proceed, I can't see how a case could be made against others (even others who perpetuated the same lie).

It's not as simple as just taking somebody to court either, both in criminal and civil matters. The CPS clearly state that the charge used against Boris is normally in conjunction with a statutory crime, with the misconduct charge bolstering / alongside it. It's exceptionally rare to use it on its own.

And civil litigation is expensive, time consuming and unpredictable. Plus you need to fulfil the criteria for whatever you're suing for (breach of duty / negligence / breach of contract etc).

I can't see that multiple cases are feasible.

{It also risks the tables being turned and Brexiteer taking Remainer to court for something or other...}
The points made in the leaflet distributed to all are gradually coming into fruition, so that chance is relatively low. Osborne's prediction about financial loss did not really kick in as quickly as 'Leavers' had in their heads, mainly because 'leaving' is a process not an instantaneous event, although having triggered A50, the shock of a 'crash out' will feel pretty dramatic.