Westministenders: The Only Election That Matters - The Tory One

[RedToothBrush]

Fallout from the Euro Elections makes for interesting reading for the leadership hopefuls.

Its not a clear cut as some make out. There is still a case for a deal. The trouble is passing it through parliament. And there is no time to do that. Nor no will.

Any new leader's priority isn't going to be a deal. Its going to be avoiding a General Election. And thats going to be hard.

We are also realistically facing the prospect of another extension which France is likely to block leading to no deal or no deal.

Or a 2nd Referendum.

A 2nd Referendum might be the only way to avoid a General Election. And that will still have no deal on the ballot. Of that you can be sure.

Peter Foster of the Telegraph remarked this morning that in fact the only way to a deal now, might well be via no deal, because of all the routes we have exhausted through incompetence. And that will come at a very high price.

Nice to have my sense of humour appreciated DGR

he keeps his big trap shut and refuses to take the stand in court.

Pretty sure you can't do this in the UK without being held in contempt of court (a serious charge which can result in prison). We have no equivalent of the 5th amendment.

I'm cynical about the chances of success for any prosecution regarding politicians lying.

The Scottish courts have already accepted that the public expects politicians to lie (which was actually part of the LibDems defence ) after 4 constituents took (with the help of crowd funding ) Liar Alistair Carmichael (MP for Orkney & Shetland, who won, iirc by just 800 votes in 2015) to court for having explicitly lied in public office during the GE campaign. Court found that he did indeed lie but that that was not relevant to the result, on the basis, iirc, that it couldn't be confirmed how much, if at all, the public had been influenced by it, especially as the electorate don't expect politicians to tell the truth

At least the court didn't award costs to the defendant, so Liar Carmichael was left with a £250,000 bill

Pretty sure you can't do this in the UK without being held in contempt of court (a serious charge which can result in prison). We have no equivalent of the 5th amendment.

You can do it if you keep your trap shut from the off, and continue to say nothing. Remember for now, the prosecution have to prove their case, not the defendant.

If you do say something in interviews than you can be cross-examined under oath over it - that's the whole "under caution" bit.

Worth reading about Dr. Bodkin Adams who - allegedly - escaped the gallows by such a strategy. Fascinating case. He was extremely litigious and lived into the 1980s, with his lawyers on speedial ... a lot of newspapers paid him a lot of money for implying he was guilty.

Of course "no comment" is not a defence against material evidence, and removes a defendants ability to explain it.

I'd be fascinated how someone conducting their own defence would manage ....

We have no equivalent of the 5th amendment.

We have no direct equivalent of any US constitutional provisions - even though they were "borrowed" directly from English law.

That said, the prohibition on forcing someone to incriminate themselves is still quite extant in English law, even if RIPA and terrorist legislation plays a little fast and loose with it.

The maximum sentence for the charge is life imprisonment, which is interesting (and why it's going to Crown Court rather than the Mags).

They don't have to interview to charge him as his actions are there for everyone to see. He can put his defence to Court and explain himself and why he's not guilty.

And no, you don't have to give evidence in Court (it's usually a method taken to prevent professional embarrassment as, if a Defendant lies on oath and their Counsel know it's a lie, they have to withdraw, citing embarrassment. Which is, to coin an MN phrase, a red flag!).

I'm fascinated by it as it's such an unusual charge.

Now, how to find an unbiased jury?!

And there was me being discreet about Carmichael's faux pas earlier pretty

Quite a lot of whataboutery on twitter re LibDems on ... justaboutanything atm. So I fear their revival may prove even more shortlived than I suspected.

All geared up for another IndyRef having been assured that was a Once in a Generation choice .....

tbh, I find it ridiculous to charge a politician with lying, unless it was under oath, of course

Tom Brake would get my vote in a LD leadership bid were he to stand, and were I still a member. I’d vote for Ed Davey rather than Jo Swinson.

It isn't the lying, in and of itself, that's the issue. It's the fact that the lie was part of a campaign and potentially enticed some of the electorate to vote leave.

The offence is committed when:

• a public officer acting as such;
• wilfully neglects to perform his duty and / or wilfully misconducts himself;
• to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in the office holder;
• without reasonable excuse or justification.

(From the CPS website.)

So it's the extent of the lie he told and when he told it, in my opinion. Not just the lie.

I think whoever posted earlier about Jo Swinson being a risky choice ( whatever your opinion on her merits) is correct. She's not a dead cert to retain her seat at the next GE - so that would plunge the LibDems into yet another leadership campaign.

And I think he should be tried, personally.

I also agree Gina Miller was right to bring the case - Parliament should decide

Since she is an Utra Remainer, she would probably happily take an increased risk of No Deal in exchange fo having prevented May unilaterally approving any Brexit

The problem is that May squandered a massive opinion poll lead to lose the 2017 GE and produce a hung Parliament - she really isn't good at politics

A hung Parliament required the main 2 parties to agree the negotiatíng aims and to be kept continually up to date, like Barnier did with regularly briefing the E27 and gaining consent from them.

May chose instead to ally with a tiny (290,000 vote) extremist party, who totally opposed the only possible deal with her red lines

tbh, I find it ridiculous to charge a politician with lying

Generally yes - which may explain the scarcity of such actions.

However, BoJo isn't "a" politician. He is an elected representative who holds public office. It's arguable (and hence worthy of a court case) that he used that fact when making the statement he did with the aim of influencing the opinions of the electorate.

I vaguely recall Farage very quietly put a lot of blue water between himself and that bus very quickly.

Speaking for myself, there is also a case to be made that the papers and media outlets that are happy to print any old claptrap should be held to account over it. Mysteriously we can manage it with libel and official secrets, so the truth should be a doddle.

Incidentally, whatever happened to much awaited Daily Mail volte-face ?

The Liar Carmichael judgement: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35050691 Although the petitioners chose not to take it to the Supreme Court (iirc, because the costs were too high and the chance of success not guaranteed), their point that he had lied was accepted - but unfortunately the judge was "not persuaded" that the false statement was in relation to anything other than "a political machination".

It would brought under the Representation of the People Act (so different to BoJo's case) but in the ruling, Lady Paton said Mr Carmichael had told a "blatant lie" in the Channel 4 interview - but that section 106 of the Representation of the People Act did not apply to lies in general.

But Liar Carmichael was not awarded costs - which were only £150,000 www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35521442

And the UK needs more immigration ....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48443716

Migration rules should be relaxed for vets, web designers, psychologists and architects from outside Europe, government advisers have said.

(contd)

Although that needs to be caveated by the fact that in some areas there are plenty of UK skilled workers that need paying a lot more than the companies claiming a "shortage" are willing to pay. Or so I see from the offers I occasionally see in my area. Like a stopped clock, UKIP might be right about one thing .....

Incidentally, even if BoJo were to be convicted, he won't lose a single supporter. We've moved onto "The End Justifies The Means" rung downwards.

Maybe now we know why lawyers aren't so keen on Brexit ...

blogs.thomsonreuters.com/legal-uk/2018/10/24/no-deal-brexit-could-result-in-significant-decline-in-uk-legal-sector-turnover-report/

I imagine the Brexiteers that can read will find this another Good Reason for Brexit ....

iirc according to Countryfile the reason UK abattoirs are almost wholly reliant on EU vets is because they barely pay minimum wage. Add in that it is harder to get into UK Vet school than Med school and Pet Insurance means people are increasingly willing to spend stupid amounts of money on prolonging animal suffering. It is no surprise there is a shortage of UK vets for such work and tbh a bit of a surprise that there are so many EU Nationals willing to fill the gaps.

Vets don’t just do cats and dogs they are an essential part of the regulation of the food industry any increases in border checks will be made even more difficult because of the lack of vets.

Increase in tuition fees and a five or six year degree course probably hasn’t helped recruitment either.

iirc according to Countryfile the reason UK abattoirs are almost wholly reliant on EU vets is because they barely pay minimum wage.

By making education so expensive, all the UK has done is make the wage requirements of the end product more expensive.

Carmichael's constituents had a whip round to cover his costs. If anything the case has bolstered his support. If he had lost the case the LibDem / Con backlash against the SNP in 2017 might have been a lot worse.

The lawyers are the main beneficiaries of crowd funded politically motivated cases and they also give the unelected and unaccountable an unwarranted platform imho.

Self insuring (two/three Siamese would not be cheap ) means that we are not sentimental about prolonging our cats' lives It also helps that my dad was an unsentimental cattle farmer before he became a doctor

....although the £300 - £400 that the old girl cost for her final set of tests (before she died anyway ) and the antibiotics (that she never got to take) and the special renal food (that she never ate) did sting a bit!

Most fellow UK vets I know aren’t interested in abattoir work because it’s grim - if some bloke from Poland wants to do it, good luck to him.

Ditto food exports.

All part of the ‘people won’t pay what it takes to farm quality home produced food’ discourse.

Pet insurance is a blessing and a curse; lots of vets are attracted to the advanced style of practice insurance allows. It’s a significant issue in how the profession is evolving.
EU vets are similar to UK in their attitudes ime.