Can people/Remainers explain what they are tying to achieve with Revoke?

[EggAndButter]

I initially wanted to post on AIBU but I didn’t have the guts and thought it wouod just be moved anyway...

I’m getting tired of Brexit.
Tired of the lies and dreams of the Leave side.
But just as tired of the dreams and wishful thinking of the Remain side.

So I am asking Remainers on here

What do you expect to achieve with Revoke?

How are you planning to deal with the Leave side being left down?
How will you deal with the inevitable instability coming with Revoke? There will a lot of very angry People around.... people who will be feeling left down. People in the north who have always being feeling that the South and London never listens to them and that this is another proof they don’t. And being sure that you have the ‘right’ solution isn’t going to be enough.

I have the same questions for Leavers btw. It’s just that the answer seems to always be ‘that’s the will of the people. Just suck it up’ :(

As we are going deeper and deeper into this brexit mess, it’s clear that there is one way to go back to what the U.K. has. That ship has well and truly sailed.
It’s also clear that No Deal will be a nightmare.

So the only way out I can see is a deal. A deal that will worse for the U.K. than being in the EU. A deal that both sides ‘will just have to suck it up’.
A deal where no one will be truly happy because the other solutions (No Deal or Revoke) just aren’t possible. But the only way out until the U.K. can sort itself out, its political system that has more or less collapsed, its priorities in the middle of a climate crisis, social issues, poverty and economic downturn, its press. (Whilst crossing fingers that whilst it’s doing that, no one will use that opportunity to take power -Trump style for example)

Not feeling very positive about it all. But even less so when I see both sides just sticking to their mantra and refusing to accept that, basically, they have both lost the game.

Great, thanks woman19 you’ve given me the source. And the point of posting that was?

Except that virtually all the examples that you give are what the UK does.....

Don't you like English Culture louise? You can't get much better than Shakespeare. He wrote about how he perceived the English, but it was realistic, rather than flattering.

As opposed to the anti Scottish sentiment seen regularly in Parliament? As Lisbon mentioned above?

Thank you Stoorie it's never usually noticed. Especially on here.

It's the UK government doing all the things you're suggesting the EU have done. And in thinking so, you've given them free rein to do exactly as they like, without any kind of support from the EU.

And people wonder why I'm past the point of having a sensible conversation about Brexit without a trace of fucking irony.

Jesus wept.

Maybe this will help then,

According to EU law monitor, these are the areas where the EU has exclusive legal competence.

The areas over which the EU assumes exclusive competence are:

the Common Commercial policy
the Common Agricultural policy
Fisheries policy
Transport policy
Competition rules
Rules governing the free movement of goods, persons, services and capital.

www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-policy-areas/in-what-areas-can-the-eu-legislate.html

My position on these is dead simple. For rules concerning the movement of persons, goods services and capital, it is right that the EU has legal competenc because they are about movement between nations. I don’t want to be part of those rules, but I recognise why they are needed for EU member states.

For the areas of , agrigculture, fisheries, and domestic transport I would want these to be the exclusive competence of national parliaments.

The words 'go back to where you came from' from the Tory benches when the SNP stand to talk don't make the English look very civilised

Apologies Ian Blackford was only told to 'go home' from the Tory benches when he stood to speak. Although I'm sure the intent was the same

Well thanks Lisbon, you asked me questions, I gave you some answers as I see them, and all I get for my trouble is sworn at!

Just to answer your last point, I also actively want the U.K. parliament to have the power to make any law it likes (again!) that is one of the key motivators for me supporting Leaving

I trust you would want the same thing for the Scottish Parliament Louise?

Interesting @louisecollins. Does that make you a more Norway style leaver?

Do you seriously want us to be totally in charge of our domestic transport? I have no idea what effect the EU has on our transport systems but we could do with a more continental style rail... ie affordable and efficient. Either that or TfL should take over regional services... much better than stagecoach...

I would want the Scottish Parliament to legislate however it wishes within the competencies agreed between it and the U.K. Parliament, yes.

Just to answer your last point, I also actively want the U.K. parliament to have the power to make any law it likes (again!) that is one of the key motivators for me supporting Leaving

Well I would agree if said parliament had also been able to prove it can actually

• stop laws that against human rights
• sort problems out when decisions are left firmly in their camp (see finding a solution or Brexit)
• actually proven the whole system is working.

Atm the whole system is collapsing so maybe it would be best to start by sorting that out and THEN giving more ‘power’ to Parliament,

Just to answer your last point, I also actively want the U.K. parliament to have the power to make any law it likes

Uk goverment can make any law it likes now as members of EU unless it breaks Human Rights Law which underpin EU.

I don't think that poster likes Human Rights, English Law, English culture or our brilliant Scottish MPs.

I wonder if that poster even likes this country.

Indeed that’s my problem the “unless” it can make any law “unless “ it conflicts with European law.

I wonder if that poster even likes this country

Indeed that’s my problem the “unless” it can make any law “unless “ it conflicts with European law.

There's your answer.

Of it seems that some of our politicians are waking to the fact that Remain/Revoke on it’s on isn’t enough. You also need to know what you want to do with it!

European elections: Change UK launches ‘Charter for Remain’ in bid to secure anti-Brexit vote

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/european-elections-2019-change-uk-brexit-climate-change-nhs-vote-a8908661.html

Louise can I point out that countries are NOT actually fully free to have whatever law they want?

Regardless of the EU, having laws that are against human rights is going to be highlighted by organisations such as the UN.
Some countries want to have certain standards on how a product is manufactured so there are more standards ‘imposed’ on you if you want to make business with them.
Banks, to be able to work internationally, have to follow international rules
Etc etc

I have to say, I’m actually quite happy that those boundaries are there. We needed them a lot before (world wide, not just the U.K.!!) for human rights.
We will need a hell of a lot to protect our environment and deal with the climate crisis.
I’m also very happy to the different laws, aka treaties, about nuclear weapons too and nuclear trials.

Brexit was bollocks
built on lies
fuelled by xenophobia
which created populism
funded by dark money

that will do for me as reasons to stop it

Right back from work, tricky old day all in all ( currently channelling a football manager !) , but feel like I made a positive difference to some really difficult situations, which is the best you can hope for sometimes. I remain in awe of human beings and their ability to face the worst possible outcomes so stoically.

Louise thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, we still don't agree on the remedy, but that's OK, I wasn't expecting either of us to reach a opinion changing epiphany

I also actively want the U.K. parliament to have the power to make any law it likes (again!) that is one of the key motivators for me supporting Leaving

You'll also want to leave the ECHR, the WTO, the IMF and NATO then.

Ah yes, just like in Brunei where being gay gets you killed. By their sovereign law.

We have already had the discussion about how they could have supported Redcar steel works but chose to use the EU as an easy excuse

Just because a Labour MEP says that the Redcar steelworks could have been saved with state aid doesn't make it so. Her blog is dated December 2015 and the first example she gives is the Ilva steel plant in Italy - a month later the EU Commission issued this press release:
europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-115_en.htm

"The Commission has received numerous complaints from interested parties against alleged State measures aimed at keeping Ilva afloat artificially, potentially leading to a significant distortion of competition considering Ilva's large production capacity."

And this statement:
europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-16-118_en.htm

"EU State aid rules allow fostering the long-term competitiveness and efficiency of steel manufacturing but not supporting manufacturers in difficulties."

"The Commission took two decisions, a final negative decision on Duferco (Belgium) and opening a formal probe into state measures for Ilva in Italy."

"First, the Commission adopted a final negative decision asking Belgium to recover €211 million of aid granted to companies within the Duferco group."

"Second, the Commission opened a formal investigation into possible aid measures granted by Italy to Ilva."

"In view of the chronic over-capacity of the steel sector, EU Member States and the Commission have already since the 1990s agreed to prohibit rescue and restructuring aid to steelmakers in difficulty."

"Since the exclusion from rescue and restructuring aid for steelmakers in difficulty in the mid-1990 it has adopted numerous negative decisions (many with recovery orders) in many EU countries, including Belgium, Germany, Italy and Poland."

EU Commission's decision on Ilva;

"Brussels, 21 December 2017"

"It has concluded that two loans granted by Italy in 2015 to support ILVA involved illegal State aid.Italy must now recover this undue benefit of about €84 million from ILVA.^

europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-5401_en.htm

No doubt you will all be pleased to hear some good news- Forgemasters in Sheffield (one of the struggling companies mentioned in the Labour MEP's blog in 2015) has now powered back to profitability in April 2019 and appears to be unconcerned by a no-deal Brexit.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/business/sheffield-forgemasters-powers-back-to-profitability-1-9730659

(nb Vince Cable was the Business Secretary defending the axed loan to Forgemasters in 2010.)

One of the most hilarious things about Brexit is watching conservatives who worshipped at Maggie's feet argue in favour of propping up uneconomic industries.

Mistigri
I didn't say Redcar could be saved - I posted;

"Just because a Labour MEP says that the Redcar steelworks could have been saved with state aid doesn't make it so."

Redcar SSI had an unsustainable business model based on one steel product - Peregrina is a Liberal Democrat.