Can people/Remainers explain what they are tying to achieve with Revoke?

[EggAndButter]

I initially wanted to post on AIBU but I didn’t have the guts and thought it wouod just be moved anyway...

I’m getting tired of Brexit.
Tired of the lies and dreams of the Leave side.
But just as tired of the dreams and wishful thinking of the Remain side.

So I am asking Remainers on here

What do you expect to achieve with Revoke?

How are you planning to deal with the Leave side being left down?
How will you deal with the inevitable instability coming with Revoke? There will a lot of very angry People around.... people who will be feeling left down. People in the north who have always being feeling that the South and London never listens to them and that this is another proof they don’t. And being sure that you have the ‘right’ solution isn’t going to be enough.

I have the same questions for Leavers btw. It’s just that the answer seems to always be ‘that’s the will of the people. Just suck it up’ :(

As we are going deeper and deeper into this brexit mess, it’s clear that there is one way to go back to what the U.K. has. That ship has well and truly sailed.
It’s also clear that No Deal will be a nightmare.

So the only way out I can see is a deal. A deal that will worse for the U.K. than being in the EU. A deal that both sides ‘will just have to suck it up’.
A deal where no one will be truly happy because the other solutions (No Deal or Revoke) just aren’t possible. But the only way out until the U.K. can sort itself out, its political system that has more or less collapsed, its priorities in the middle of a climate crisis, social issues, poverty and economic downturn, its press. (Whilst crossing fingers that whilst it’s doing that, no one will use that opportunity to take power -Trump style for example)

Not feeling very positive about it all. But even less so when I see both sides just sticking to their mantra and refusing to accept that, basically, they have both lost the game.

Fwiw my guess (and its only a guess and the start of it, Im likely to change my mind over time...)

• A recognition of the pledges of the referendum. The Leave vote was NEVER about No Deal. Everyone said how we would have a deal, the 'easiest one in history'. As well as the recognition of what cannot and will not happen. Some things have changed too - the UK is apprently the country the most open to immigration in the EU, so why are we still going on and on about immigration, the hostile environemnet and being able to 'control our borders'?

• we need a WA and long transition period as we sort out what we want to acheive ad the negociate wit the EU.

• we need a common market to keep the economy going until we finalize what we want to acheive for the country

• we need both a get out clause and a get in clause (so we can just leave OR come back fully in the EU though a well define script)

• we need to start a proper reporting of what is happening - non biased report of the advantages and disadvantages of what we have and of what we could have (Leave fully or Remain).

I would be also very careful not to mix issues with internal policies (eg easier access to benefit, human rights etc etc) AND issues with Brexit.

How much benefit we give to people has nothing to do with Brexit for example.

And it does give the feel that Remain is actually a lefty issue associated with a socialist pov. When you can easily be from the right AND european (I would have said manybe even more so seen the very positive influnce of free trade with the EU...)

@churchthecat I have to say I don't care 100% about the remain voters.
We had a referendum and 17.4 million people want to leave. We've had 3 years already. Let's leave now.

{So how, if no Leave occurs will you deal with those who are "let down?"}

In the same way that 'Leavers' consider those that want to remain, ignore them and dismiss their concerns at every opportunity.

{Implementing free movement restrictions might be worthwhile but is a hopelessly poor substitute for controlling our own borders, but ok I'll give you that one. }
So, round the loop again, explain HOW you have borders to keep 'undesirables' out but simultaneously NO border across Ireland or between Gibraltar and Spain?

ID cards are a great idea, it helps prove who you are and can help against fraud.

We do control our own borders. Who hasn't been through passport control when coming into the UK? With the exception of Ireland, for which we have a special arrangement.

It's perfectly possible to go from France to Germany via Belgium and the Netherlands and keep your passport in your bag the whole time. This is because they are in Schengen and we aren't.

Thanks @LouiseCollins28 , Leavers again showing they don't know what they want, they only know what they don't want. Saying what you don't want is the easy bit.

I have to say I don't care 100% about the remain voters. We had a referendum and 17.4 million people want to leave. We've had 3 years already. Let's leave now.

The problem is the remainers you're not interested in are also not interested in you and you need their help. Leading to the current situation and making it more likely that it becomes a perpetual mobile in English politics.

Frumpetys last question was
If we don't leave, what changes would you like to see?

So taking inspiration from Bellini's list I thought I'd list some examples of other changes I would want to see "post revoke" from my viewpoint as a disappointed Leave voter.

• pass new personal taxation laws to enshrine a big difference in the levels of taxes levied against earned income (from work) compared to income from other sources. To the advantage of those who are working.

• massively incentivise "saving", not sure how but " part match funding" from the government for a proportion of personal savings particularly for young people is attractive.

• massively increase the resources and activities of the Serious Fraud Office", HMRC and DWP to clamp down on fraudulent claims against public funds and tax evasion.

• massively increase the resources of the UK border force and if necessary customs and excise. Likewise increase police numbers.

• make a new levy against the organisers of demonstrations to pay for policing them, similar to how forces charge football clubs.

-close down several departments of the UK government, e.g. DfID becomes part of the Foreign office.

-incentivise to the fullest extent possible compatible with EU rules the use of British or British partnered suppliers of goods and services for major procurements in transport, defence, construction.

• oppose any and all further transfers of power to the EU

• oppose any and all further military cooperation between EU nations

• introduce an "all England" representative body to be based outside of London

• control free movement of labour/people to the fullest extent possible while preserving an open society (e.g. no ID cards)

• this one is probably wholly unrealistic but ensure that companies providing an essential services, utilities, transport etc do so to a high quality at a fair price, and compulsorily seize their assets if they fail.

People used to be against ID cards, but I question whether they would be so against them now. Back in the 1950s when the wartime cards were finally abolished, people didn't travel abroad much, so few had passports, and people who drove had little maroon books for their driving licences, which didn't have photos. Even the wartime/postwar cards didn't have a photo on them. Therefore photographic evidence to prove who you were was quite rare.

Now many more travel, so have passports, most drivers have photo ID driving licences, people have photo bearing name badges for work. In addition rules have been tightened up and you have to start providing photo ID plus a utility bill with your name on or some other identification to do things like open a bank account or fly anywhere in the UK with Ryanair. This leads me to think that for many a simple ID card with name, address, signature and photo would save a lot of hassle. I wouldn't go along with the expensive scheme that Tony Blair wanted to introduce.

@LouiseCollins28 , fair enough. Some I disagree with, some I don't. So why does flushing our economy down the toilet with No Deal present a reasonable alternative to this?

I have never advocated for No Deal.

Yes, @LouiseCollins28 , but what is the Brexit alternative to No Deal that protects GFA?

{- oppose any and all further military cooperation between EU nations}

Why?
You do realise that any significant military action necessary would likely be for /against Europe as a whole, not within the countries of Europe.
When/if there is a significant conflict, the UK will be in the shit as much or more than many others in Europe, so being widely separated would not be an advantage.
Some of the other suggestions are reasonable, why not pursue those rather than the negativity of leaving the EU?

I have never advocated for No Deal.

Then you are in favour of leaving with a withdrawal agreement. What would you say to those people who would categorise this as a betrayal?

I was asked what I wanted!

One of the things I want as I have said repeatedly is for our key military alliance to be NATO, not any other grouping.

I've gone through this on a previous thread and refer you to my previous answer.

So taking inspiration from Bellini's list I thought I'd list some examples of other changes I would want to see "post revoke" from my viewpoint as a disappointed Leave voter.

I'm not going to address those one by one, but most could be done inside the EU, and at least couldn't be done inside or out (assuming you want to remain inside the WTO).

People used to be against ID cards, but I question whether they would be so against them now.

The problem is not the card - as pointed out most people carry some form of ID anyway.

The problem is far more the obligation to carry a card. An obligation with then brings in something we've never had in the UK before as a peacetime requirement - the power of the police to stop you and say "papers please". Which is a hell of a shift from the current state of affairs.

That's before we get into the database behind the ID cards which will be permanently incorrect. Just about acceptable when dealing with a subset of the population, but unacceptable when dealing with 100%.

There's also the cloned-car effect of a policeman managing to record a wrong ID at a stop, and a poor innocent citizen suddenly finding they were somewhere they've never been and in trouble as a result.

When they were last floated, we were told that only immigrants would need to carry them ... I really hope I don't have to comment on how ludicrous that sounds.

One of the things I want as I have said repeatedly is for our key military alliance to be NATO

So what do you think our "key military alliance" is currently?

Yes, generally I am.

What I'd say to them that wholly depends on what's in the Withdrawal Agreement/Pol Dec that is approved by Parliament, if one is.

With the WA as it currently is, I'd be saying that this was the only deal that had been agreed by the EU negotiators and we'd be far better of taking it than not.

What I'd say to them that wholly depends on what's in the Withdrawal Agreement/Pol Dec that is approved by Parliament, if one is.

Well, if you want to know what's in the withdrawal agreement you only have to read it. There isn't another one.

The PD is largely irrelevant, because not binding (on a future U.K. govt).

@LouiseCollins28 , if you are in favour of accepting the WA, then you and I are in agreement. I'm prepared to hold my nose for it. And it seems you are too. So what's with all the Leaver posturing?

which is the point of the list, thanks Misti. Its supposed to be in a "post revoke" scenario.

Sorry Misti, maybe I wasn't clear in my follow up post. Our current key military alliance is NATO, I want this to remain the case.

Louise doesn't want that withdrawal agreement.

(Even though it is the only one on offer).

I was asked what I wanted!

Most of them look to be within the remit of Westminster, so what has been stopping them? For politicians, blaming the EU has been such a convenient excuse.