Did anyone know what they were voting for?

[VictoriaReal]

I voted Remain. A leave voter recently said to me how frustrating he finds it when people say Leave voters "didn't understand what they were voting for". I can empathise somewhat with his view that this statement can be generalising and patronising. However, his argument was "we [leave voters] DID know what we were voting for".... and my argument is: No you didn't- because NO-ONE knew! Not leave or remain voters.

How can anyone, leave or remain, claim to say they knew all the facts (unless of course they work in government or for the EU).

Did they really know all the associated issues and knock-on impacts of the vote?? Did anyone actually put two and two together about the Irish border? I don't even recall the Irish border being mentioned in the referendum campaign.

Signing up to the Withdrawal Agreement IS leaving the EU, but in a controlled fashion rather than the dangerous chaos that a 'no deal' would bring.
No deal is actually badly named as deals HAVE to be made and will take around 6 to 9 months minimum and even then the chances of people dying by 'accident', meaning that the chaos will mean that situations will occur that no one has thought about, rather than deliberate actions.
The WA is estimated to take around 2, possibly 3 years to implement, during which time yes it will be a half in half out existence BUT there is no immediate disruption as most of the the effects of leaving will only take place at the end of the transition period.

It is worth noting that the EU will not discuss ANY trade until the WA is signed. This is rather important as the EU will be involved in most trade negotiations with anybody else so they effectively hold a veto if they choose to do so.

But it really doesn't matter what you understood or I understood or Uncle Tom Cobbly understood MarieG10, that is what the OP was saying - it was never actually defined, in law, by agreement. It could have meant anything to anyone and obviously did mean many things to many different people. The vote was for a kaleidoscope of "leaves" so how can it be anyone's majority? If you chose to be "aggrieved' there is not a lot anyone can do about it but why should the 'leave' you understood dictate to those who felt it was something else? I am not sure about the referendum being disingenuous - I'm not sure it even got as far as being that thought through. Personally I would say it was cowardly.

But it really doesn't matter what you understood or I understood or Uncle Tom Cobbly understood MarieG10, that is what the OP was saying - it was never actually defined, in law, by agreement.

Not for Remain voters ...

Really interesting points made. Yes, I think what I was referring to was the actual facts and realities of this, rather than what people 'believed' they were voting for or what they wanted.

I can't believe that there are still those who want to Leave now that we do have many more ACTUAL facts, seeing for example the dangerous seemingly unresolvable situation with the Irish border. I can only imagine that those leavers who have not now changed their mind must either be a) so utterly entrenched in their view to the point they have put their fingers in their ears, or b) (a small minority) of die-hard isolationists / racists.

My own hope now, is that the cross-party talks break down and that Parliament is asked to vote on "no deal/crash out" vs "revoke A50", and that common sense revoke prevails.

We'll always have immigration. If people want to come here, they will - be it with a visa or illegally.

Yes. But unfortunately UK governments have not used the powers they had regarding EU immigration, or even talked about them, and allowed the narrative to be taken over by the right wing (or fed it themselves) with the result that a lot of people think the EU controls UK immigration to a much larger extent than it does. It was convenient to use the EU as a scapegoat when people expressed concerns about immigration.

From what I can remember, there was a huge amount of information on the issues surrounding a vote to leave at the time.

I remember the televised debates when Sadiq Khan debunked the myth that Turkey was about to join the EU. There was plenty of information to counter the claims made on ‘that bus’. I remember watching a BBC Breakfast special talking about the issue of the Irish border. There were dire warnings from the BofE and George Osborne. There were plenty of warnings that we had no idea what sort of negotiations with the EU would be possible and that we could end up in a ‘worst of both worlds’ situation.

These warnings were all filed under ‘Project Fear’ and ignored. I remember having a conversation with someone who was telling me that it would be great if we ended up like Norway. They had no idea of the fact that these wonderful international trade deals that we would be free to make simply wouldn’t be possible in a Norway style trading arrangement. They didn’t care; they just wanted to be ‘out’.

This is the biggest issue with a PV as far as I can see. I have no faith that the voting public will pay any more attention to the arguments than they did last time. Take ‘no deal’ off the ballot paper and they will call it a ‘stitch up’. Leave it on and how do you ensure the idiots won’t go and vote for it?

I can't believe that there are still those who want to Leave now that we do have many more ACTUAL facts, seeing for example the dangerous seemingly unresolvable situation with the Irish border.

The Irish border issue was discussed and dismissed as a non issue. Anyone who really knew anything about the situation and pretty much the whole of the island of Ireland have known from the outset what a danger this posed to the GFA. The expectation was that Ireland would bow down to pressure and threats against their economy. What was underestimated was the strength of feeling about the GFA and that people were willing to put peace above all else. The simple fact is many people here really do not care about NI and it is seen as an annoying far away inconvenience by politicians.

I knew I was voting to keep Freedom of Movement, low friction trade, pooled sovereignty, economic stability & enhanced global influence. I didn't know that by voting Remain I was voting for...

Boats, medicines & airplanes to be licensed.
Northern Ireland to stay peaceful.
Staying in the SM & CU (I still struggle to understand what each one is)
Staying under jurisdiction of the ECJ

I wish I had voted for those things, too. The more I find out about them the more :( I am at losing them.

Thanks for the honesty, @CrunchyCarrot.

YeOldeTrout

I'm sorry DGRossetti, I didn't know you would take my post totally out of context. I had made it clear that I was talking about the leave vote not having a structure laid out or a legal framework. Perhaps I need to repeat that each time - I didn't realise.

I supported leave, but would not have bet on leave winning the vote. I thought it would be similar to the Scottish referendum with around 55% to remain. Didn’t even bother to watch the results as they came in.

What has come out of Brexit is once again that politicians can’t be trusted. T May said many times that UK would be leaving the EU on 29 March 2019. Did not happen. She also said that no deal is better than a bad deal. That did not happen either.

For the average person in the street UK has become two countries in one. The divide being those who voted remain and those who voted leave. How people chose to vote is their individual decision and it does not have to be justified to anyone else, but that appears not to be the case. Leave voters have been labelled as thick heads by many on several forums, MN included.

As the uncertainty continues the division becomes stronger. Regardless of the outcome half of those who voted will not be pleased. Trying to please everyone is always a waste of time.

Make a plan and stick to it is my choice. If in the future it looks like a bad plan then reassess. At moment UK is floundering about without a plan. Result is that more time and money is going down the drain.

Good luck to all.

If in the future it looks like a bad plan then reassess

1. It will be too late by then!
2. It clearly looks like a bad plan now. Which is why MP's are against.

All plans need time to become effective. He saying Rome was not built in a day is very appropriate. To keep changing plans before any of them have had a chance to get going is very inefficient. However, JRM estimates that it will be 50 years before UK feels the full benefit of leaving the EU. Are people prepared to wait that long to see if it was a good decision or not? Those who voted remain are not, but those who voted leave seem prepared to have a go.

I'll be 98 by then. My kids will be approaching pensionable age

Have a go?? Seriously, can't imagine that the reality will be quite as appealing I must say.

Whether or not UK will be better off after leaving the EU will only become apparent after sufficient time has passed to allow the benefits to materialise. It was never going to be an overnight switch with instant benefits.

50 years!! FFS! What's the point!

I'm TTC. No point having children if you're just going to land them with 50 years of disadvantage!

Talk about being dogmatically entrenched and determined to make life worse for yourself just to "prove a point", by which time (if things do get better) we'll all be dead!

Absolute madness.

If the 50 years is correct it’s a long time to wait. However, how anyone can forecast that far ahead with any certainty is questionable I think, but it will not be an overnight windfall.

how anyone can forecast that far ahead with any certainty is questionable I think, but it will not be an overnight windfall.

That's not a "let's not listen to experts" is it?

The Office for Budget Responsibility has forecasted, by doing the sums. 2064 until we would have paid off the £37.1bn Brexit bill according to them.

We haven't Been allowed to leave yet love.

It's didn't envisage the leaving process to be easy. I imagined waves and waves of issue's and problems.
BUT what I didn't envisage or know was that parliament would put being with the EU above being with it's own people.

I didn't realise the EU project is more important to some people than basic democracy too the country that gave the world the magna carts.

I don't blame what's happening now on the leave vote. . I blame the MPs dedicated to thwart Brexit and most importantly democracy with bercow sneer.

@Eateneasterchocsalready
BUT what I didn't envisage or know was that parliament would put being with the EU above being with it's own people.

What does this even mean?

Btw OP how do you feel about the flourishing gun and sex slaves benefiting from no boarders? DID you see the recent Madeleine McCann documentary.

One theory is paedophilic gang stole her and was able too get her several countries away within hours due to open boarders.

The guns used to slaughter those people in the bataclan theatre. . I'm sure you already know, but open boarders enabled those guns to reach those murderers,.. OP I'm sure you have carefully balanced all this already in your wide And careful reading about the remain vote 🤔🤔

Jason it means, rather than rolling up sleeves and thinking ok . I wanted to remain but the vote leave won.. let's work through this to get the best deal and outcome..

It said...let's frustrate brexit, be awkward, pretend it's not happening.... stick our heads up bercows ass... and sing...

The Office for Budget Responsibility has forecasted, by doing the sums. 2064 until we would have paid off the £37.1bn Brexit bill according to them

45 years to pay £37 billion seems to be pessimistic. Would have thought what Uk no longer needs to pay EU would cover £37 billion sooner than 45 years?

It said...let's frustrate brexit, be awkward, pretend it's not happening.... stick our heads up bercows ass... and sing...

Similar comments made on question time last week. Tony Blair and John Major were named as working behind the scenes to ignore the result of the referendum.