Did anyone know what they were voting for?

[VictoriaReal]

I voted Remain. A leave voter recently said to me how frustrating he finds it when people say Leave voters "didn't understand what they were voting for". I can empathise somewhat with his view that this statement can be generalising and patronising. However, his argument was "we [leave voters] DID know what we were voting for".... and my argument is: No you didn't- because NO-ONE knew! Not leave or remain voters.

How can anyone, leave or remain, claim to say they knew all the facts (unless of course they work in government or for the EU).

Did they really know all the associated issues and knock-on impacts of the vote?? Did anyone actually put two and two together about the Irish border? I don't even recall the Irish border being mentioned in the referendum campaign.

I would almost agree with you Victoria. We did all know what the status quo was, i.e., remain. We knew the costs, that it was helping our economy and that our businesses could work with it. None of us had a view of the actual structure of "leave". There had been no debate in parliament as to what it could actually be and no negotiation with the EU to give us that knowledge. As Peter Osborne, now a Brexit recanter said yesterday "Brexit has paralysed the system. It has turned Britain into a laughing stock. And it is certain to make us poorer and to lead to lower incomes and lost jobs". Certainly no one told us that.

The idea that we should all pay for others follies does not sit well with me now and we may find it never sits well with the general population.

www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/

Remainers just voted for what we already have. So unless you don't understand anything about how we are operating right now, you know what you are voting for by the simple definition that it already exists. It's not about "smart" vs. "stupid" really. It's about reality vs. fiction.

I know what I voted for. It was to leave the EU.preferably with no deal.

@Coppersulphate - why?

No I didn’t understand. I couldn’t see the benefit of leaving, despite the campaigning and so I voted remain. I do think there are people out there who voted to leave the EU for valid reasons, but I don’t know anyone who expected we’d be here 3 years down the line.

I knew when I walked outside my front door this morning I was leaving my house, that from that point anything could happen.
So when I voted it was to leave the EU...

Mummy2017. That's would be fine as long as no one goes on to try and define everyone else's "from that point" as being the same as theirs. That means all those voting by their feet this morning by "leaving" their house were not voting for the same outcome. So in each case leave can mean something different. That means, according to your laissez faire view, that no one knew what they were voting for when it came to the structure of "leave" and, according to you neither were they a majority for a cohesive outcome. By your definition they were a series of minorities. Which I am very happy to agree is true.

mummy that's true in that you could be abducted by a pterodactyl, or someone could come up and offer you £1,000,000, but those are both unlikely, and you probably decided to walk out of the house to go somewhere specific, unless you are perhaps on a penny hike today?

Something fun as a means of entertainment but not helpful when trying to get things done, or get somewhere specific, and potentially very very long if you are unlucky?

IalwayswantedtobeBeth, do you know that is probably the best answer I have ever heard as to why we voted leave...
Lots of little groups of unhappy people ... This could be why DC never thought it would happen.

{Lots of little groups of unhappy people}

But the good news is that when the UK leaves it's going to get worse.

When you vote for the status quo, as remainders, they you are voting to carry on a known situation. Even if you didn't understand exactly how, say, trade agreements work.

Putting a vote to leave to the people without any clear plan on how it would actually be delivered was foolish and dishonest. Especially as this was done purely for party politics to satisfy a certain section of the Tory party and head off the threat of UKIP.

Triggering Article 50 without a consensus or agreement on how it should happen was just madness.

We are now almost 3 years down the line and still there is no plan, no agreement and no consensus. The reason for this is that all things considered they know that there is nothing that can beat our current membership terms.

But lots of little groups unhappy for different reasons - some nothing whatsoever to do with the EU, should not be able to impose their will, and the cost of their will, on a majority who could show what their vote meant mummy2017, as those Brexiteers, who insist everyone voted for a particular type of 'leave' (theirs) do.

It was certainly badly done mainly by the Tory Remainers and the consequential negotiations have been badly executed mainly by the Tory Brexiteers. It would be good to get back on the track of doing something well - if there is anyone or any group that can.

I think this has shown just how little Parliament care about us .
And this will only get worse, as the PM has shown she will do anything ask anything just to kick the can on down the road.

Trouble is we can see the brick wall at the end of the road

Looking back I'm very surprised that there wasn't more consideration of the Irish border situation at the time of the referendum as that is essentially now the sticking point

There was plenty of consideration - well before the referendum John Major and Tony Blair (amongst others) both warned very publicly that leaving the EU would require a fundamental rethink of the GFA.

Just not enough people listened.

I know what I voted for. It was to leave the EU.preferably with no deal

Precisely nobody was talking about "no deal" in 2016.

Withdrawal deal - not in question

Trade deal - possibly nothing and trading on WTO rules but was thought unlikely

When you vote for the status quo, as remainders, they you are voting to carry on a known situation. Even if you didn't understand exactly how, say, trade agreements work.

As a remainer, I knew that the UK had influence in the EU - considerable influence. Outside .... fuck all.

I think this has shown just how little Parliament care about us

I could have told you that in 2015. We didn't need Brexit to discover that.

I also believe there was a lot of misplaced arrogance and the 'they need us more than we need them' spouted during the leave campaign that led people to believe we would have the upper hand in negotiations. There was a complete failure to understand how the EU works, their absolute commitment to maintaining its integrity and commitment to supporting member states like Ireland.

I voted Remain because I work in an industry which is highly dependent on single-market membership and freedom of movement, therefore I voted to maintain the status quo.

When Leave won, I assumed the government would take a pragmatic approach and go for EEA / EFTA membership. I never imagined they would actually be so stupid as to go for a hard Brexit. Because I have strong links with NI, I also realised very quickly that a hard Brexit was incompatible with the GFA.

"I think this has shown just how little Parliament care about us."

I'm not sure you can blame Parliament Mummy2017 but parliamentarians - yes. It is time we updated the way we run it. Hierarchical to the level we have there is not how anything is run these days. I did hear/see/read someone say this was an English Brexit because the English have no focus for agreeing (or not) their Englishness. I'm not quite sure what I make of that but I have thought we need to get rid of the HoC and the Lords and have an English Parliament - like the rest of the devolved administrations - and UK Parliament to bring them all together. It's a thought.

I thought about voting leave Jsmith99, when I thought we might go for a EEA/EFTA style set-up. I have always thought we were better in the EU from an economic point of view but not sure we fit with the EU from a political point of view or that it fits with our island nature. I really like the idea of a two ring Europe with the friendly loners in an outer ring, especially when you see what China and the USA are up to. However, it became apparent it was not defined and when the modern day Barons, Boris, Rees-Mogg, etc., began to tell us they were looking for a new fiefdom I took fright and voted remain.

Sosig how do you think all those daffodils in Cornwall are going to get picked or cabbages in Norfolk? Immigration that's how, only it will be foreigners from Russia or the Ukraine not Poland - reckon you'll be able to tell the difference?

I voted remain and clearly understood leave meant that this meant leaving the customs union and single market. I was also aware it could mean having customs controls although I don't recall the Irish boarder being discussed in any depth. I think the assumption was we would have the wonderful free trade deal.

Given the vote, I really think it should be carried out as per the outcome and not this half way house which is just a total mess. I feel really aggrieved that we are now going to effectively stay in without any say over any future say over future decisions which will significantly affect us and is definitely worse than having remained or left properly.

I think having a referendum was completely disingenuous if there was no intention to carry out the result if it went the perceived wrong way and now leaving us in a Tortola mess

We'll always have immigration. If people want to come here, they will - be it with a visa or illegally. That is unless we want a former GDR style border whereby we shoot anyone leaving or coming in