Countryfile

[Bearbehind]

Trying to avoid throwing something at the TV.

2 sisters who are pig farmers who voted Leave who are now wondering about the potential influx of cheap imports and the lack of ability to sell the cuts the UK market doesn’t want to the EU.

Seriously, how did this not occur to them before the vote?

The thing is that I listened to and read both Remain- and Leave-leaning points of view, plus read unbiased research.

I don't think lacking knowledge about the EU is an excuse to only listen to a few voices or only those that were coming from one perspective.

I get that an entrepreneur will try something new and test new ideas. They might even do something bold for their business that requires a bit of faith and innovation to drive it through. But a good entrepreneur doesn't drag everyone with them regardless of whether that is good for the other person or not.
If I was those pig farmer's bank manager, I'd want to looks little closer at their business decision making.

Remainers didn't have to understand as much though - they were voting for the status quo to continue. If they were say enjoying the benefits of the single market, then they would continue to do so.

But I didn't become a Remainer until I'd done some reading and learning. Before all this I couldn't have told you anything much about the single market/CU/WTO/tariffs/just-in-time chains etc etc. I learned it in order to be able to make an informed decision.

I just don't think it's an excuse for anyone of moderate capability (and from this thread it sounds like that applies to the women we're discussing).

It's perhaps unfortunate for the pig farmers concerned, but by voting Leave they voted for a pig in a poke which they look like getting.

(I'll get my coat.)

{(I'll get my coat.)}
Presumably not a sheepskin jacket!

I was surprised at their hope that British consumers would buy more domestic food produce as a result of the vote, that's just blinkered optimism. One of the sister's hoped that it would make people more 'patriotic', whatever that means. I'm absolutely aghast at the blind faith they seemed to place in the fact that we'd be protected from cheaper, lower quality imports, when it has long been the ambition of many countries outside the EU to get access to relatively affluent UK consumers. I think many farmers are used to feeling powerless when it comes to decisions that are made on regulation affecting their industry, they have to hope that they will be protected after Brexit because the alternative means going out of business. The cold hard reality is starting to bite for many farmers.

But I think their farm did look very good - lively clean pigs (the huge amount of fresh clean straw most likely for tv's benefit but still, the farrowing pens were good) - outdoor pigs is a nice idea but really difficult to maintain well in practice. And given the amount of bacon, ham and sausages we consume in this country, we really need to have farms that produce large volumes of meat under good conditions.
If you eat pork products, but think this is an unacceptable standard of meat production, then you're most likely a hypocrite. And don't even look into chicken production.
(Disclaimer - I am a meat eater but I only buy higher welfare UK produce).

Perhaps if they had spent as much time researching the basics of international trade and UK poverty levels as they did researching animal welfare standards, they would have voted for the status quo and made whatever tweaks they felt necessary to their business to appeal to new markets.

Remainers didn't have to understand as much though - they were voting for the status quo to continue. If they were say enjoying the benefits of the single market, then they would continue to do so.

Actually many leavers, even reasonably well-informed ones, voted for things to stay the same too (just with fewer foreigners).

It was a stupid question to put to an underinformed electorate, especially given that the British political system was incapable of enforcing its own rules on political campaigning.

I recently saw an interview with a farmer on the border in NI who voted leave. He was convinced it would all just work out.

And still, so many deluded people believe that it will 'all just work out', Green. It's staggering.

Yup. 'They'll' come up with something. Whoever 'they' are, they'd need to get moving on it.

People should be able to trust politicians and actually a lot of older people still do.

Wasn't part of the given reason for UKIP support that people had lost faith in politicians ?

That said, you have to question the critical faculties of someone whose response to losing faith in politicians is to vote for politicians ?

Tbh, I think it's a bit unfair to criticise farmers for not understanding (in 2016) how international trade and the single market work.

Well they certainly understand more now. And they and others who have made a similar stupid decision, for their businesses should be shouting form the rooftops that they want a second vote. If people like this were more vocal, maybe the PM would listen.

Also people have mistrusted politicians for decades. Our whole system is awful, I'm not sure how it will change in the future but there has to be consequences for politicians lying to us.

I have no sympathy for them, nearly all the farming press and most farming organisations explicitly stated in the run up to the referendu that leaving the EU would most likely be bad for the UK farming industry.

Farmers don't have the excuse that they weren't aware. Unless they were living under a rock they were told and many chose not to listen/believe.

As an upland hill farmer (who voted remain) we are now facing an extremely uncertain future. We are currently in the process of lambing nearly 1000 sheep with no idea if we will be able to sell this years lambs at all in the autumn and early next year like we usually do and facing the likelihood that we will be competing with very cheap 'beef' imports from outside of Europe.

{Wasn't part of the given reason for UKIP support that people had lost faith in politicians ?}

With the irony that UKIP have achieved less than most.

Tbh, I think it's a bit unfair to criticise farmers for not understanding (in 2016) how international trade and the single market work.

Depends, really. I think the one thing Remainers and Leavers would agree 100% on, is that the importance of the referendum was stressed at every opportunity. Indeed the phrase "once in a lifetime" was accepted by both sides.

By all means, claim ignorance in casting your vote against that backdrop. But pardon me for not treating it as a particularly clever thing to do.

But DGR actually a lot of remainers voted on similarly flimsy grounds. It might have been a once in a generation opportunity but actually it was treated by our political class with all the seriousness of a beauty contest.

Voters shouldn't be asked to make complex policy decisions, and if they are the referendum should be between two actionable options and campaigning and provision of information should be carefully overseen as in Ireland.

When ministers in government repeatedly lie to voters, you can hardly blame the voters for being taken in.

But DGR actually a lot of remainers voted on similarly flimsy ground

And ?

We were already in. Remaining wasn't a vote to join. It was a vote to change nothing.

It's been a source of constant frustration when Leavers (amongst others) try and paint the two choices - Leave or Remain - as somehow equal in impact. They weren't. In fact, there's a school of thought (mine) that Remain shouldn't have been an option anyway, as the default position. It certainly shouldn't be an option in any PV.

With the irony that UKIP have achieved less than most.

In terms of policy, yes. In terms of getting Cameron so totally rattled about the ERG and losing votes to UKIP that he called the Referendum and threw other manifesto commitments out of the window, UKIP/ Farage have caused a revolution. OK last week's march showed that in practice, not all that many people are behind him enough to go out and do anything.

So DGR what would you have had on the ballot. Should we Leave the EU/Yes or No?

Would that not have given the same result?

So DGR what would you have had on the ballot. Should we Leave the EU/Yes or No?

Well in any new ballot it'll be something like:

How should the UK leave the EU ?

1. No deal
2. the WA
3. renegotiate a new withdrawal agreement.

To win a super majority of the result and electorate is required, cross constituent nations of the UK. If that can't be achieved, nothing happens. Because - as previously noted. Remaining is not the opposite of Leaving. Joining is the opposite of Leaving.

The ballot was flawed from the start - and that's before you consider it advisory.

I don't have any sympathy for leave voters.

We were already in. Remaining wasn't a vote to join. It was a vote to change nothing.

Wouldn't argue with that at all, remain was the rational response for that reason alone

But people were told, repeatedly and by apparently-serious people, that leaving was the same as remaining only better (fewer foreigner and more flags).

Mistigri, yours is an interesting post as it explains how difficult this question was.
It should never have come down to just ' leave ' or 'remain'.