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Brexit

Westminstenders: Distract and divert. Just close your eyes.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 18/02/2019 11:16

This morning Jeremy Hunt declared that, 'With vision on both sides we can find a way through that has the support of Parliament and also works for the EU'

Of course this is 18th February 2019 and the UK has yet to demostrate they understand the problem, much less have the vision to solve it. And we leave the EU next month.

It needs to be stressed at this point: DON'T FORGET TO FOCUS ON WHAT REALLY MATTERS

Everything else is a tactic to make you close your eyes and miss what is really going on. Everything. Brexit looks increasingly like a hypnotist making their subject do ever increasing acts of ridiculousness on stage. Except I do not know if the public or the politicians are that poor sod. It is the magician who uses tricks of slight of hand to make you look the wrong way, whilst they makes all the big moves out of your vision.

There are so many stories that are coming out to try and make you miss what the government are failing to do. Stay focused. We can't ignore all these stories, but understand whether they are really important to the end game too.

A labour split, a march on the 23rd March, talk of a PV, the Brady amendment, the Malthouse Compromise, Cooper-Boles halting no deal?

No we need more than that.

The time for fantasies are gone. Its time to face reality and be pragmatic. The only thing that matters is the approaching cliff. Which we will go over not on the 29th March but in the next couple of weeks. We might not realise the ground disappearing beneath our feet at first. Our momentum as we go forward will carry for a short while before gravity kicks in.

But we can not defy the laws of physics and suddenly be able to fly because we develop magic superhuman powers of vision.

And no one will come to save us either.

Our national humilation will be total, if we don't acknowledge what is coming and stop.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3492426-Westministenders-Abbreviation
Brexit Abbreviation Thread

OP posts:
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33
RedToothBrush · 20/02/2019 10:09

Fahad Asari @ fahadasari
A few thoughts on the decision to deprive #ShamimaBegum of her UK citizenship:

1. It is unlawful to deprive someone of their citizenship if this would render them stateless. Making someone stateless is denying them the right to have rights ( as Hannah Arendt put it.

2. Even if someone is entitled to another citizenship but does not possess it at the time of deprivation, they cannot be deprived of their citizenship. Therefore it cannot be argued that someone could apply for another nationality.

3. The UK government did not begin its deprivation policy today. The power has been increasingly used in recent years with 104 citizens deprived in 2017 alone. Those deprived include aid workers and a man who went abroad to support his wife who was giving birth.

4. In the case of UK citizens of Bangladeshi heritage, Bangladeshi law states that they automatically have Bangladeshi citizenship on birth, i.e. they're dual nationals. However, if they do not make an active effort to retain that citizenship when they reach 21, it lapses.

5. Such was the case with E3 and N3, two British citizens of Bangladeshi origin who found themselves deprived of their citizenship when they were abroad in Bangladesh and Turkey respectively.
link to their case

6. The Special Immigration Appeals Commission (SIAC) ruled that as they had. not sought to retain their Bangladeshi citizenship before they turned 21, it had automatically lapsed. As a result, the decision to deprive them of their UK citizenship had rendered them stateless.

7. In Shamima Begum's case, my understanding is that she is British born and raised and has never been to Bangladesh. Nevertheless, it may be the case that as she is still 19, ie under 21, her Bangladeshi citizenship technically remains intact. So she is not stateless by law.

8. @sajidjavid was no doubt aware of the ruling in E3 and N3. The bizarre result of this is that young people including teenagers like Begum are more vulnerable to deprivation than mature adults.

9. However, questions do have to be raised as to whether she remains stateless in circumstances where it is virtually impossible for her to obtain evidence of her citizenship or use a single benefit of citizenship in any way. She is in a refugee camp in a war zone.

10. The power too deprive UK citizens of their citizenship can only be used against the children of immigrant parents meaning that the application of the policy is inherently discriminatory in its application. It cannot be used on a white Englishman with white English parents.

11. Of course, Begum's appeal against the decision is not just limited to the statelessness argument. She can also argue that the decision is disproportionate and that there were less punitive measures available to achieve the objective of safeguarding national security.

12. We have over a dozen counter-terrorism acts on the books in this country criminalising even travel to Turkey if it is with the intention to go into Syria, even if you don't get on the plane to Istanbul. Why is the UK so afraid of prosecuting Begum in open court?

13. Either the argument in her case (and in all deprivation cases ) is that there is insufficient evidence to sustain a successful prosecution or that the evidence is not disclosable in open court as it would compromise intelligence.

14. If there is insufficient evidence to prosecute such individuals in open court, then how on earth can they be sanctioned with the severest penalty without any form of due process?

15. The Home Office would much rather deprive them of their citizenship and thereafter defend their decisions, not in open court, but in the mysterious world of the Special Immigration Appeals Commission (SIAC).

16. SIAC is the judicial body which routinely decides these appeals. A large part of the allegations and evidence is in CLOSED meaning that neither the appellant nor his instructed lawyers are permitted to see it or even know about it, let alone try to challenge it.

17. To provide a semblance of due process, security vetted Special Advocates are appointed by the Attorney General to represent the appellant in the CLOSED hearing. But once they see the secret evidence, they are prohibited from communicating with the appellant or his lawyers.

18. In a case like Begum's, one would have thought that there was adequate evidence to prosecute her for one of the myriad of offences under our counter-terrorism laws specifically created to deal with returnees from Syria. Yet, @sajidjavid has deliberately chosen not to do so.

19. While the UK govt believes that it has washed its hands of Begum, it does still have a responsibility to her baby who is a British citizen, having been born at a time when Begum held UK citizenship. @sajidjavid needs to declare how he intends to deal with that innocent child.

20. The deprivation policy is nothing more than a return to the medieval punishment of banishment and exile against those who were always perceived to be 'foreign'. End of thread.

The more you look at the legal stuff, the murkier it gets. And the more troubled by it I become.

OP posts:
libertyonhertravels · 20/02/2019 10:15

The Begum case brings to mind the famous scene in 'A man for all seasons' where Roper and More argue about More saying he would give the Devil the benefit of the law. More argues:

' What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?... And when the last law was down and the devil turned round on you - where would you hide Roper, all the laws being flat? This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's, and if you cut them down - and you're just the man to do it - do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I give the Devil the benefit of the law, for my own safety's sake.'

DGRossetti · 20/02/2019 10:15

20. The deprivation policy is nothing more than a return to the medieval punishment of banishment and exile against those who were always perceived to be 'foreign'. End of thread.

And a step closer to "outlaw" with all that implies. In this case armed UKIP units roaming the streets "Papieren bitte" and shooting people without.

Who thought in the 1980s we'd be discussing this, instead of how far our jet packs can go on one charge of fusion power ?

Missbel · 20/02/2019 10:16

I enjoy the Westminstenders threads because of the fantastic informed discussion and reasoned argument (and the black humour). The vitriol levelled at Shameena Begum by some sits oddly with this. I don't feel that most of us know enough about her and her case to judge what should happen to her in the long run. I have no personal feelings about her case other than sadness - both that she should have made such a mess of her life at a young age and that we, as a supposedly mature democracy in which human rights are meant to be protected are merely trying to duck our responsibilities and lay them on another country which is less able to cope.

Sostenueto · 20/02/2019 10:17

Question on Jeremy vine show channel 5.....brexit job cuts: sack leavers first?
Some vile phonecalls. Absolute encouragement of hate. That's what I mean about hate. I've said it on numerous occasions no matter what people vote I personally could not bring myself to hate someone voting different to me even if that puts me in a minority group.

DGRossetti · 20/02/2019 10:17

The vitriol levelled at Shameena Begum by some sits oddly with this.

Taking off his turban they say is this man a jew ? wasn't allegorical. It was factual Sad

bellinisurge · 20/02/2019 10:20

I live in Manchester. One of my DD's friends was at the arena that night and still struggles with trauma.
If that young woman had said I'm very sorry for what happened instead of the entitled act she has put on, it would help her situation. I'm sorry for her child.

Sostenueto · 20/02/2019 10:21

missbel totally agree!

Sostenueto · 20/02/2019 10:23

bellinisurge would you feel able to speak up against IS stuck in a Syrian refugee camp with covert IS fighters in it?

borntobequiet · 20/02/2019 10:25

Email from People's Vote:
It's still fewer than 100 hours since we announced that we will be taking to the streets again, demanding that any final Brexit deal is put to the people.
The response has been overwhelming.
Endorsements from stars like Gary Lineker to Tony Robinson have helped get almost halfway to our goal of raising £500,000 for the costs of this march.
And sign-ups are already TWICE what they were on the day of our first big march in London last summer.

bellinisurge · 20/02/2019 10:25

I would feel able to do something more than "whatever" which was her basic response in the second interview. Or I would avoid the press and ask to speak to my family.

Missbel · 20/02/2019 10:26

Thank you Red for the post above about SB. It confirms my impression that this is a complex situation which really needed to be handled thoughtfully and without haste. And preferably not in the glare of media attention.

Sostenueto · 20/02/2019 10:27

I don't expect people to agree with me but some semblance of understanding of psychological/ physical reasons as why this young woman is acting the way she is (SB) might be helpful.

Missbel · 20/02/2019 10:28

A brilliant quote, Libertyonhertravels

Sostenueto · 20/02/2019 10:29

Thanks red that informed post a great help.Wine

bellinisurge · 20/02/2019 10:30

I do attempt to understand her psychology. But she should keep away from journos.
It is a complicated situation and she needs to find an advocate to speak for her.
Presumably her child is entitled to Netherlands citizenship via his father.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 20/02/2019 10:30

We are adding transport to the march info to this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3510056-Put-it-to-the-People-March-23rd-March

Peregrina · 20/02/2019 10:31

And sign-ups are already TWICE what they were on the day of our first big march in London last summer.

These are by no means a true reflection of the numbers going. In the summer I think we hoped for 100,000 going by the numbers who had registered as going. Instead another 600,000 of us turned up.

I hope we can make it at least a million this time, preferably more. Not that it will influence May - a million people marching count less than 40 ERG members in her book.

SusanWalker · 20/02/2019 10:31

I think Shamima Begum needs a proper psychiatric evaluation. And I don't think interviewing her in a refugee camp the day after she's given birth is going to help her.

George Galloway on sky saying that saying there's anti semitism in the labour party is a lie. He's trying to get back into labour. That man makes my skin crawl.

bellinisurge · 20/02/2019 10:35

Galloway has seen them let that other twat in so he fancies his chances.

libertyonhertravels · 20/02/2019 10:37

It's a great play missbel. Lots of learning from English 16th century politics feels pertinent ATM sadly.

SusanWalker · 20/02/2019 10:37

It's almost like the labour party wants to make themselves unelectable. Perhaps they do. Perhaps their brexit policy is to stay out of power for as long as possible whilst it's happening.

Missbel · 20/02/2019 10:37

Galloway and Hatton both. Awful to see the Labour Party sink so low.

Meanwhile, the MayBrexit saga looks more and more like a black hole - just an absence of anything. It's hard to imagine what MPs are going to vote on next week.

Missbel · 20/02/2019 10:39

I saw it many years ago Liberty - and studied it in the VIth form, in the days when there were no AS Levels and the VIth form was actually about widening one's education! (That's me with my GOW hat on.)

BiglyBadgers · 20/02/2019 10:47

Speculation on what Begum's situation is, what her past was like and why she acts the way she does, or even what it is she is trying to achieve is pointless. We don't know and the chances are unless we are directly involved in her case we never will. That is why we have due process and laws. Following these is the only thing that matters and the only right thing to do. Armchair psychology or conjecture helps nobody and serves no purpose except to muddy the water and make this an emotional issue rather than one of law.

I am furious about this case not because I feel strongly either way about her personally, but because this is yet another example of the government circumnavigating due process in order the further a fundamentally racist agenda and stir up hate. This is a hugely dangerous thing to be doing for all of us and in my view we should be spending a lot more time talking about the government's ethics and morality and a lot less worrying about whether Begum is a bad person or not.