Westminstenders: Distract and divert. Just close your eyes.

[RedToothBrush]

This morning Jeremy Hunt declared that, 'With vision on both sides we can find a way through that has the support of Parliament and also works for the EU'

Of course this is 18th February 2019 and the UK has yet to demostrate they understand the problem, much less have the vision to solve it. And we leave the EU next month.

It needs to be stressed at this point: DON'T FORGET TO FOCUS ON WHAT REALLY MATTERS

Everything else is a tactic to make you close your eyes and miss what is really going on. Everything. Brexit looks increasingly like a hypnotist making their subject do ever increasing acts of ridiculousness on stage. Except I do not know if the public or the politicians are that poor sod. It is the magician who uses tricks of slight of hand to make you look the wrong way, whilst they makes all the big moves out of your vision.

There are so many stories that are coming out to try and make you miss what the government are failing to do. Stay focused. We can't ignore all these stories, but understand whether they are really important to the end game too.

A labour split, a march on the 23rd March, talk of a PV, the Brady amendment, the Malthouse Compromise, Cooper-Boles halting no deal?

No we need more than that.

The time for fantasies are gone. Its time to face reality and be pragmatic. The only thing that matters is the approaching cliff. Which we will go over not on the 29th March but in the next couple of weeks. We might not realise the ground disappearing beneath our feet at first. Our momentum as we go forward will carry for a short while before gravity kicks in.

But we can not defy the laws of physics and suddenly be able to fly because we develop magic superhuman powers of vision.

And no one will come to save us either.

Our national humilation will be total, if we don't acknowledge what is coming and stop.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3492426-Westministenders-Abbreviation
Brexit Abbreviation Thread

Joshua Rozenberg @ joshuarozenberg
I can see that Shamima Begum might have Bangladeshi citizenship under Bangladeshi law. What I don’t know is whether her child has Bangladeshi citizenship too. No court would allow them to be separated while the baby is so young.

Adam Wagner @ adamwagner1
How will they be separated? They are together

Joshua Rozenberg @ joshuarozenberg
I’m suggesting that she would not be allowed to enter the UK but she would argue that her son could. So the Home Secretary might have to let them both in.

But I’m only thinking aloud: there may be an answer to this.

Joshua Rozenberg @joshuarozenberg
Another problem for @ukhomeoffice is that written notice must be served on a person before depriving them of citizenship (British Nationality Act 1981, s40(5) — but that didn’t happen. Home Office says notice was served “on file”, whatever that means.

The Begum thread is horrible. If this is a site by parents for parents then I am glad that my children never lived with such horrible people. They ought to remember the old saying 'first they came for.....'

The likes of Theresa May could easily come for them next.

I think the other reason that they don't want her back is that while she does appear to have committed at least one criminal offence it's easy to imagine that she wouldn't get a long sentence if tried in the U.K. (minor, groomed, doesn't appear to have committed violent offences). They don't want her tried by the court system: much better to have her tried at a distance by the baying hounds in the court of public opinion.

Thank you @LonelyandTiredandLow, that was depressing reading Of course it's no surprise to us, just confirms what we've been saying and fearing all along.

What a mess.

@grinchly and @mrslaughan, thank you. I'm hoping that he'll manage to hold on to something- and that the Easter lamb trade will be good-ish to tide him over. I know a lot of farmers voted Leave, but I really don't understand why. We've both known from the start of all this that being in the EU was far better for farmers.

And yes, I'll make room for the dogs - his best dog already spends a lot of time here with me if for any reason she can't be with him. They aren't house dogs though... we'll have to have a row of kennels in the garden!

Precisely Pretty. She's currently in a Syrian refugee camp I believe.

But yes, the law isn't the priority for the Home Secretary here. It's the politics that surround it. Meanwhile guess who will foot the bill for the legal case? Yep, me and you. And the outcome isn't likely to be any different in the end.

Shades of what Trump wants to do - throw out parents even if their children are US citizens.

And who else feels this is also a direct echo of the Nazi Nuremberg laws ?

This isn't Godwin. This is what's happening.

How many other brown people will the Home Office suddenly decide have other citizenships to be deported to ?

In light of Gove's statement wrt tariffs hitting livestock farmers, I predict tough times ahead for the DUP in any upcoming GE.

There are lots and lots of small livestock producers in NI who will have hard questions for the DUP and may be sorely tempted to cast a vote for an alternative Unionist party or even for Alliance, or even cross the great divide to engineer a tactical defeat for the DUP.

The majority Remain vote in NI included many Unionist votes so there are many thousands of voters who might abandon the DUP.

Sparkly yes it does - somehow having confirmation doesn't make it any easier. I do feel my friends who reluctantly stockpiled might be thanking me a little now though. Leavers still either not looking for info or being sold on the "last minute deal" ticket.

I'm really sad about Shamima Begum too. She was 15 when she left and as my DD said when we discussed it, since she was under age she was sexually abused. She's been brainwashed and traumatised and her comments about things like the Manchester bombing can only reflect what she has heard and seen over the last 4 years, with no chance to form her own independent opinions. I cannot believe that it would have been beyond the wit of the Security Services to keep a close eye on her. I'm sorry that we haven't taken this opportunity to show that we are better than IS. And if we can't cope with her, how on earth are we going to manage the actual IS fighters when they come back here?

Mistri the comment I saw is along the lines of whether she actively joined a terrorist organisation. The suggestion was as an ISIS bride she went to Syria and led a very dull domestic existence rather than being in anyway actively involved in terrorist activities. Whilst she could be described as sympathetic to ISIS and supporting their ideology the case of whether she actively engaged in the activities of the group (including recruitment and promotion) is a bit of a grey area. She's said she never set out to be a poster girl. So intent is also questionable.

The Home Office don't necessarily want a court case of a minor who was groomed because a good lawyer will make mince of it.

Instead trying to bar her from returning and looking political tough if a more attractive prospect than a court case which might prove more difficult to win than it appears on the surface.

Not to mention, how does the media coverage and obvious politicking by Javid affect the defence of her not having a fair trial?

Honestly the whole thing is an utter mess. And one I don't think will be easily sorted out if she's determined. It will rumble on for a long time and have a polarising effect on social attitudes of the public.

Which is just what we need as a nation right now.

*The Home Office don't necessarily want a court case of a minor who was groomed because a good lawyer will make mince of it.

Instead trying to bar her from returning and looking political tough if a more attractive prospect than a court case which might prove more difficult to win than it appears on the surface.*

Red - yes - absolutely. I think they would probably find some grounds for conviction but it wouldn't be for anything major and it definitely wouldn't satisfy the baying racists here and elsewhere.

That thread is unbelievably horrible.

Missbel That sounds so grim for hill farmers
Your poor DP doesn't have the years left to make up for a Brexit slump either

It has been shocking for years though, how little farmers get for their produce
The price of cheap food is being paid by farmers being ground down.

I don't see how they can compete if they soon lose even the protection of tariffs against e.g. industrialised lower welfare produce from the USA

To be honest about it, I'm avoiding the Begum thread and forming too much of an opinion on the subject myself. It's a deeply complex subject that I lack the knowledge and experience to really say what's the best option. I don't know what banning her from returning achieves, and I don't know whether her returning is viable and going to work for anyone concerned either. It's another one of those issues which has been simplified to the point that it's grossly unhelpful to everyone bar those with a particular political agenda to push. And to be blunt that's all I really see the case as, a political football. Its not really about Begum nor her son.

I'm appalled at how the BBC interviewed her and how the Manchester bombing victims have been sucked into it, with journalists around the parents of the dead children like blood sucking vultures. It was a completely unnecessary question and one designed to whip up emotions and actively hurt victims and the bereaved. I don't see how platforming Begum in this manner was helpful. It just gave a voice to the group she's belong to and upset everyone here.

Worst journalism I've seen from the BBC in a long time. Just utter gutter press type stuff I'd expect from the Mail or Sun not the Beeb. Irresponsible as a word to describe it doesn't cut it for me.

Anyway.

Alex Wickham@alexwickham
More whispers... Independent Group trying to convince other MPs to jump ship before PMQs tomorrow

I'll have to respectfully disagree about the Begum case.

I don't disagree that the Govt are handling it badly...using it to distract and score political points potentially against international law and due process but...

I disagree that she is a 'poor groomed girl' and that's nothing to do with her being of Asian descent. If a 15 year old caucasian girl had left the UK during WW2 to marry and support a Nazi because they held Nazi beliefs and showed a similar lack of remorse over any of the crimes the Nazi's committed at 19 I'd feel exactly the same.

But I agree that it's a bit of a side track to get into the Begum case here...though I'm not sure I'll go onto the Begum thread either.

I'm passing no judgement on Begum either way - but

Bugger - payed by accident

....but I am passing judgement on the abuse by our own government of International law

She was a child. Groomed. How on earth is it ethical to strip her nationality on the basis that she could but isn't a citizen of another nation

Where could that stop? I would be stripped of my nationality as could many people I know. It doesn't have to be terrorist charge it could be any undesirable

The Begum thread is horrible. If this is a site by parents for parents then I am glad that my children never lived with such horrible people. They ought to remember the old saying 'first they came for.....'

Absolutely!
Disgusting thread... i suspect it won't be long before the UK brings back the death penalty.

stilltalks Why do you think retiring to the EU after Brexit would take immense wealth ?

I live in Germany and will be retiring shortly.
I'm comfortably off - not immensely wealthy !

I've have had private insurance since my 30s- and health insurance is probably the sticking point atm
However, I'd expect the govt to agree asap about continuing the S1 scheme of paying healthcare for its state pensioners in the EU, since it's cheaper for the exchequer
The govt might try to discourage a braindrain, but I doubt if they would mind an oldy-drain !

I expect a UK pensioner on my sort of income would still be allowed in by the EU, especially countries like Spain

It's not a good idea for someone on a smallish UK pension,
but then it never was, since Sterling has been gradually sinking for decades against European currencies

btw, mc prepping:
I'd advise anyone who can afford it to take out private insurance before they get any health problems, or reach middle age;
that was a sensible decision even back in the 1980s because of the NHS limitations, not particularly Brexit-related
and it would still be sensible even if we Remain

I've avoided Begum all day... I just felt as an individual citizen it's not my place iykwim. I know nada about ISIS except recruiters had a habit of going for people with additional needs in the UK (and elsewhere I would guess) and some were vulnerable to it due to isolation that was exasperated due to social care cuts. Also there were/are extremist recruiters in prison who recruited but they weren't strictly IsIs. Neither seems to apply to Begum but yeah let's try to avoid unexpected consequences...or turning her into an icon

I disagree that she is a 'poor groomed girl' and that's nothing to do with her being of Asian descent.

Its one for a point of law rather than my personal opinion. From what I've seen she comes across as incredibly naive and utterly thick. But that's not necessarily a reflection of lack of ability to consent / have legal culpability for her actions. The whole thing about grooming would be for a lawyer to argue the point about given she was a minor.

For me the actions of journalists and politicians are making the situation worse and liable to have exactly the opposite effect to the one they intend.

She was radicalised in the UK and as such there will be people in the UK who are sympathetic to what they see as her 'persecution'.

Why is she on prime time TV at all if she's such a threat to the nation?

Bloody hell, Labour's anti-semitism problem is chronic: they keep seeing Israel under the bed

Ruth George MP is obviously not sorry about claiming the Independent Group might be financed by Israel
She has a track record of that sort of anti-Israel paranoia
She just didn't expect tough criticism this time