Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: Competitive Stupidity

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 10/02/2019 16:00

A week of wondering which MP is going to be the most dumb.

There is stiff competition between parties and remain / leave.

Expect incredible bids of ignorance and incompetence to curl your toes, with a bit of constitutional craziness thrown in for good measure.

Valentine's Day beckons...

... And so does the No Deal Divorce.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
41
StepLadders007 · 11/02/2019 12:30

Pesty

Be honest please, you know the Backstop situation is being used to create as much confusion and inner turmoil as possible as leverage for the EU.

prettybird · 11/02/2019 12:30

DGR - I could tell the joke about how God who I don't happen to believe in but bear with me Wink fashions this fabulous country when he is creating the world: beautiful countryside, lochs, lots of natural resources, fertile soil, whisky, pure water, (when my dad tells it, he can really draw it this bit Grin)...... He then gets asked why he is being so generous (presumably by another omnipotent being Wink) why he is being so generous, to which he answers, "You should see who I'm giving them as neighbours Wink "

But I won't tell that joke Grin because some of the English on here are very nice and reasonable people Wink

StepLadders007 · 11/02/2019 12:32

You just seem to be the sort of leaver who delights in seeing Europe get into difficulties

Delight? I'm merely pointing out what's happening in Europe at the moment. Sorry if Germany going into recession is inconvenient for your stand point.

SmallAndFarAway · 11/02/2019 12:34

StepLadder, do you know many people from Northern Ireland? Did you ask them what they think about the backstop, seeing as they're directly affected and all? If you don't, have you looked at the polls from NI to see what the people there want? If not, why not?

As a poster kept banging on about here, the backstop = the Good Friday Agreement. Do you think it's a good idea for the UK to respect the Good Friday Agreement, an international peace treaty it signed?

TheElementsSong · 11/02/2019 12:36

I bet the answer to The Backstop was in that 500-page Brexit White Paper too. If only we could get a link to that esteemed document...

Littlespace · 11/02/2019 12:37

Re: Backstop. There is the teensy weensy consideration of the

Good Friday Agreement.

An International Peace Treaty which we helped create and should be ALL be defending!

StepLadders007 · 11/02/2019 12:38

Small,

Yes I do, I lived in Co Antrim for over 2 years.

I want the border to remain as it is now.

PestyMachtubernahme · 11/02/2019 12:39

Step if you had read and comprehended the GFA, you'd realise that it and Brexit are wholly incompatible atm.
The UK ignores this, the EU has devised steps to buy time, maybe technology can eventually solve it.

wherearemychickens · 11/02/2019 12:41

Not to mention that the EU is a regulatory superpower. To trade, we will have to follow those rules, but once we're out of the club, the EU will be a direct competitor and will almost certainly change the rules in their favour to precipitate businesses from here to there. We are heading for a poorer, meaner future.

And services. Don't forget services - most of our economy - they need the single market.

PestyMachtubernahme · 11/02/2019 12:42

I want the border to remain as it is now.

cakeism

That is only going to happen is Brexit doesn't

prettybird · 11/02/2019 12:42

Steps must be the sort of person who would trust the pyromaniac property developer next door (who also wants vacant possession of your house, preferably cleared) who tells you that you definitely don't need buildings insurance as he promises faithfully that he/she will do everything possible to keep your building safe Confused

Just because I hope never to have to use my buildings/contents/car insurance, doesn't mean that I don't pay out for it year after year. I'd love to save the money (I can think of loads of other things I could do with the money): but for peace of mind (my house) and also for legal reasons (car), I pay out year after year.

The backstop is an insurance policy. Crossing your heart and promising faithfully to be trustworthy doesn't cut it in international agreements. Whether the UK likes it or not and the DUP doesn't Angry, it signed up to the GFA. Therefore it has to sign up to the backstop - with or without the WA.

Even if the UK chooses to ignore the GFA (and in doing so, prove that it is indeed untrustworthy Hmm) and crashes out with No Deal, it will still be held to the backstop before trade talks can start with the EU. It's just we then won't have the transition period Sad

StepLadders007 · 11/02/2019 12:42

Pesty,

I see it totally different to you, the EU are denying every idea the UK Gov puts forward.

Mainly because they know what they are doing and are using the situation to their advantage.

Why can it work with the EU and Switzerland and not the EU and Northern Ireland?

PestyMachtubernahme · 11/02/2019 12:44

There is a common travel area between the two countries without the need for passport checks. But the border requires hard infrastructure because Switzerland is not in the EU VAT regime nor its customs union. Border frictions have separated markets either side of the border to the detriment of consumers.

www.ft.com/content/2d30482c-da7e-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482

PerverseConverse · 11/02/2019 12:45

I'm not ignorant really, just missing a lot of information due to greatly disrupted schooling and only covering war poetry in English and nothing at all in history regarding the war. I'm trying to fill in the gaps as I go through life as I feel it's my responsibility to address my knowledge gaps. I am humble in my ignorance. Others are arrogant.

PestyMachtubernahme · 11/02/2019 12:45

Never believe what you are told, research it.

prettybird · 11/02/2019 12:45

TheElementsSong - I'd forgotten about that. I'll ask too: Steps - please would you provide a link to the 500 page Brexit White Paper that you told us gave all the details Smile

jasjas1973 · 11/02/2019 12:48

Sorry if Germany going into recession is inconvenient for your stand point

I really do not see Germany going into recession as an argument for Leave or Remain.
By the time we negotiate any future relationship with the EU, their economy will be in a completely different place.

My concern is that Brexit could help destabilise Europe, bringing about what you clearly want (despite your denials) and history shows us that is very bad news for the UK.

StepLadders007 · 11/02/2019 12:49

Jasjas,

Tell me, what do I clearly want?

wherearemychickens · 11/02/2019 12:50

An example of the Swiss-France border. Does this look like it would keep the Northern Ireland border as it is now?

Westminstenders: Competitive Stupidity
SmallAndFarAway · 11/02/2019 12:50

Step, grand. Let's put up a few crossing points for goods like in Switzerland and see how that goes down in Antrim, what do you think?

You can either have the border as it is now and a border in the Irish sea instead, or full alignment with the EU for all of the UK, or a hard border.

The UK can pick. That it picked the unicorn that is not one of the above is not the EU's fault, is it?

PerverseConverse · 11/02/2019 12:51

@PestyMachtubernahme I've always been one to question. Everything. Drove my family nuts because I'd never blindly accept things. Critical thinking taught at uni turned me into an even bigger questioner. I probably should have been a detective instead of a nurse.

jasjas1973 · 11/02/2019 12:52

Why can it work with the EU and Switzerland and not the EU and Northern Ireland?

This shows why people shouldn't have a vote on matters they clearly know SFA about.

Switzerland is in the SM, so if the UK wants to join the SM, then sure.

prettybird · 11/02/2019 12:52

We're going over very old ground: Stepladders07 but I'll be patient as there might be lurkers who are open minded and genuinely interested in finding out more: there is border infrastructure between Switzerland and the EU. People might move relatively freely, but goods are not so free.

If you've ever driven in to the French side of Geneva airport, you see it illustrated beautifully in the big high fences around the road corridor.

Here are two links to more information.

www.ft.com/content/2d30482c-da7e-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44054594

BigChocFrenzy · 11/02/2019 12:53

I live in Germany, so I can say what boolocks step is posting

Polls here show the public is overwhelmingly against giving further concessions to the UK

The German car manufacturers and indeed all manufacturing chiefs here have said from the beginning that the negotiators must prioritise protecting the Single market over protecting UK trade

The WA is not "punishment";
with the UK red lines, the EU is required under WTO rules to have external trade borders which treat the UK like any other 3rd country

It is Theresa May who used the backstop as leverage, to get a better deal:
The EU proposed just NI in the backstop, but May leveraged this to get some of the SM trade benefits without having FOM

The average standard of living here in Germany is much better here than in the UK, so are public services
Things just work better here
The "recession" isn't noticeable

Before the Ref, the UK had one of the highest growth rates in the OECD, now it has one of the lowest, right next to Germany

StepLadders007 · 11/02/2019 12:58

BigChoc

Sorry if this is a bit long:

by Alexander von Schoenburg

EDITOR AT LARGE OF BILD — GERMANY’S BIGGEST SELLING PAPER

AS MARCH 29 looms ever closer, here in Germany, rabid, anti-British sentiment is part of the daily discourse.

The chattering classes — politicians and pundits alike — are urging our Chancellor, Angela Merkel, to harden her line towards the United Kingdom after suggestions that she was prepared to throw Theresa May a lifeline. Indeed, last week, Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer, Merkel’s successor-in-waiting, led calls for Britain to scrap Brexit completely.

Germans are far from alone in this attitude. In the wake of the momentous Commons defeat for your Prime Minister’s Brexit strategy, the European Commission twisted the thumbscrews still further.

Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, suggested it was time for the UK to abandon its ‘red lines’ over ending freedom of movement and the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice.

Yet these issues have been unshakable stipulations for the British since the beginning of talks. To casually propose dumping them in this way was insulting to your country.

Regret

The French president, Emmanuel Macron, was, regrettably, similarly dismissive when he said that Brexit was a British problem and one it would have to solve on its own.

Such blinkered and sour responses are, in my view, wrong-headed. They ignore the great debt that Germany, and the whole Continent, owes our friends across the Channel.

However much we in Europe regret your decision to leave our Community, we must always remember that, throughout your history, independence and sovereignty have been paramount. Germany, in particular, should tread lightly when it comes to dealing with your proud nation.

It was Great Britain that first stood up to Hitler in 1939. And it was Britain that opened its doors to the thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing certain death during the Holocaust.

Put simply, there would be no free Europe without you and the bloody sacrifice you made to rescue the Continent. This plain fact has not always been a popular one, of course. The truth is that there has been a long tradition of policies aimed at excluding the British Isles from Europe, most notably those of French president, Charles De Gaulle.

After the war, inspired by dreams of the medieval empire that stretched across the Continent under Charlemagne, De Gaulle poured his energy into setting up the European Economic Community — the forerunner of the EU.

But when Britain inquired about membership in the early Sixties, his answer was an emphatic ‘Non!’

Thanks to De Gaulle’s opposition, it took more than a decade for the UK to be accepted. And the driving force for unity, for welcoming British membership with open arms, was the German chancellor of the Sixties, Konrad Adenauer.

For that, ultimately, we can thank the Queen.

As has happened so often during more than six decades on the throne, Elizabeth II’s diplomatic skills and remarkable personality swung the course of world politics.

In 1965, she and Prince Philip made a whirlwind tour through Germany, captivating my country. There were endless days of balls and sightseeing, and a boat trip on the Rhine.

Adenauer was swept off his feet. Though he was, like De Gaulle, a staunch Catholic who had initially shared the Frenchman’s grand vision, he quickly came to realise that Europe needed Britain precisely because we are all so different.

Europe has never been a bland, homogenous entity — a United States of Euroland. On the contrary, it is a thrilling patchwork made up of vibrantly different nations with all kinds of funny quirks.

We needed Britain 80 years ago and we need you now.

And because we should honour the result of your referendum, we must be happy to take you on your own terms. If that means a form of semi membership with full sovereignty, so be it.

There has been much talk of the problem of the Irish ‘backstop’ — but for Europe, Britain is the real backstop. Without you, power in Europe will tend to gravitate ever more to the centre which will ultimately risk implosion.

European politics today seems to be full of De Gaulle’s, shaking their fists at Britain as you try to leave the EU.

What is needed is another statesman such as Adenauer — a man or woman to stand up to the bureaucratic machine of Brussels, who will take on the Barniers, the Junkers and the Tusks. We need someone who can remind us of our bounden duty and enable the UK to leave without punishing it.

A real statesman would rekindle Adenauer’s historic vision of the EU, as a federation of states and not some kind of bloated super-state — a confederation, that does not neglect the historic peculiarities of its members.

None of this is impossible.

Stable

Even the staunchest Brexiteers, such as Boris Johnson, realise the value of keeping one foot in the strong economic zone that the Continent represents.

If only European leaders would take a step back and acquiesce to London on this smallest of adjustments over the Irish backstop, it would take the wind out of the hard-line Brexiteers’ sails and enable a stable cross-Channel relationship for the future.

In many ways the problem is one of historical ignorance.

What we Germans and especially EU bureaucrats don’t appreciate is the delicate political situation in Northern Ireland, and the sensitivities involved on both sides. We know little of the tragic legacy of ‘The Troubles’, the deaths of so many, including British soldiers, and the hard-won peace after 30 years.

More people in the British Isles were killed by the IRA than by ISIS and Al-Qaeda combined. That statistic ought to make all of us in Europe rethink our position on the question of the Irish backstop.

We have to be more flexible, more forgiving.

Instead of torturing the world’s oldest democracy with unacceptable demands, our Chancellor Frau Merkel and the European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker should unite in calling for new talks, renegotiating face to face if need be.

Theresa May has been gravely weakened but it is unconscionable for European leaders to use this as a stick to beat her with.

Style

They should remember the great German strategist Otto von Bismarck who, in the 19th century, insisted that one should always win but never humiliate one’s opponents. The best victory is the magnanimous one.

Another adage worth recalling: now is that of the German philosopher Theodor Adorno who remarked that while the British epitomise style, the Germans represent substance. Style and substance ... there’s much truth in that metaphor.

Seen from that perspective, it’s imperative that Brexit is achieved with a degree of aplomb and decorum. At this crucial moment, Europe must concede enough to let the UK leave with head held high — and do it in style.

If, instead, our leaders continue to treat the British people with contempt, we will wreck those great ties between our countries that have been painstakingly created over many generations.

Our societies have always thrived on mutual respect and admiration. We are brothers and sisters... and this family squabble has gone too far.

It is time for Chancellor Merkel to show other European leaders the way and for them all to start treating your country as it deserves — with our respect and gratitude.

Swipe left for the next trending thread